Feelings about Education

[eliaino]

What is your relationship to education? Do you think of education as sitting in a classroom, or is life just a form of education in itself?

What education did you receive as a child/adult? Do you have an h.s. diploma? College or graduate degrees? How much did these help you in later life? What did you learn?

If you don't want to get a job, or don't need one, what do you think the point is of getting a formal education, i.e. a diploma saying you're a bachelor or a master in subject x?

If you're having problems with education, like I am, please discuss them in this thread (without totally derailing it, of course, if possible).

[RT Wolf]

What exactly are you looking for in this thread? are you looking to have your idea that educatoin is problematic verified? Do you want solutions to how to perhaps fix your problems with education?

[eliaino]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

What exactly are you looking for in this thread? are you looking to have your idea that educatoin is problematic verified? Do you want solutions to how to perhaps fix your problems with education?

Yes. But if other people think that education is not problematic, I'd like to know why they think it's important. I grew up in a household where education was stressed before everything else--so, if someone became a millionaire, but they didn't have a bachelor's degree, they hadn't "made it." As I got out into the world, I noticed people with master's degrees who were twenty dollars away from starving, or very bored, bitter people in white collar jobs that needed a degree. I couldn't understand how someone would spend tens of thousands of dollars on college--it looked to me like they were losing money, and with no possibility of bankruptcy protection!

What's the correct role for education in a person's life? Okay, I know it varies from person to person, but perhaps there's some sort of pattern that can be drawn.

[Fullcrum]

Education is learning that which you need to succeed. Success is alignment with purpose. Finding an inspiring purpose is paramount from this angle.

School learning is fine. Learning from life is fine. University is fine.

Education should be consciously chosen and self-directed towards a fruitful endeavor. What do you want to do, really?

Children often do not have this choice. Providing the choice for them is important. Give them many opportunities to shine. If you do not have a "born genius", then opportunities will enrich them. If you do have a "born genius", they will not flourish without opportunities. Either way, provide the choice for them to learn many things and engage in many activities. Education for the young is about giving opportunities to demonstrate excellence and letting the child's own interest and the needs of the society work together to guide them. Moreso the child's own interest. If we get out of the way and help them avoid negative conditioning that can make children settle for less than their potential, they will turn out fine. In fact, they will develop strong character traits that will serve them through life.

[SimonaRich]

I think school and university education is a waste of time unless you want to be in a position that requires qualifications (such as doctor). The best education is the one you really need, so self-education is the most productive one because you just get what you require and no old/useless information is learnt.

[Brutha]

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. - Mark Twain

Part of my reason for being at toastmasters is to improve my public speaking abilities, that's education but it isn't schooling.
But I'm also at university to study bioinformatics since you need a degree to get a job in research, get grands and publish papers.
But university is also a good way for me to learn about abstract concept that I need in that field and to give my life at the moment a structure in which I regularly learn more.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by eliaino

Yes. But if other people think that education is not problematic, I'd like to know why they think it's important. I grew up in a household where education was stressed before everything else--so, if someone became a millionaire, but they didn't have a bachelor's degree, they hadn't "made it." As I got out into the world, I noticed people with master's degrees who were twenty dollars away from starving, or very bored, bitter people in white collar jobs that needed a degree. I couldn't understand how someone would spend tens of thousands of dollars on college--it looked to me like they were losing money, and with no possibility of bankruptcy protection!

What's the correct role for education in a person's life? Okay, I know it varies from person to person, but perhaps there's some sort of pattern that can be drawn.

Education as we know it in the west is brainwashing. That's the blunt truth. John Taylor Gatto is my whistle-blower of choice on this issue:

John Taylor Gatto - Challenging the Myths of Modern Schooling

You can start on this free article and then get into his books if you feel like it. It really will rock your world.

If you can take the truth, that is. It can be a wee bit uncomfortable. But you're not alone. OK? I had all of this inner conflict too.

If you want to know, I decided to drop my education (just) before completing the degree before university. I felt like I'd rather die than go through any sort of job or study course that used a degree to decide that I was worthy or not, simply because exams reward those who don't shake the boat rather than those who really love learning and growth. The education system in the west is fear-based. Therefore, any job which would hire me on the basis of these things is probably fear-based. My purpose is to destroy fear-based structures, not validate them.

Well, there are people who prefer to work with the system while using love at the same time. I find that approach a little alien to me. To me, to love in this world means you have to be a rebel. Some of my friends have gone the other route, though, and I see them exhausted after being driven too hard in their new jobs, being sapped of passion, and becoming disillusioned.

On the other hand, I've struggled in my new independence too, mostly internally, fighting against my own conditioned fear and greed (greed being the fear of lack, one of the main tools that is used to hold people in the system). I've been living off the generosity of my parents for a few years, though I have also spent time exploring alternative, money-free ways of living which I know would support me if it really came to the crunch... Though to be honest I think that was still avoiding my true passion and purpose.

The question is, do you want to live a life of total love and happiness? Then you need to rebel, in one way or another. You can tolerate the system if your purpose requires that, but in one way or another to love is to be in conflict with the status quo, and as such it will do everything it can to stop you. Don't underestimate it. If you want to love, don't put yourself in the system's power and influence, because that's just like standing up in no-man's land with a bullseye painted over your chest. Get independent.

If you're still in limbo between the desires to base your life on love or fear, then feel free to explore life in the system. Try not to delude yourself, though. You're not loving by being a slave, and neither can you ever be happy.

Love and light, a strong hug,

Andrew

[pterodactyl]

Great topic!

A resource came immediately to mind when I read your post: I'll get to it in a moment. First, what is education but meaningful learning? What's important to consider: how is this process measured and evaluated, where does it occur (e.g. at home, at university), what are the logical steps in the process and what is the end goal (a degree, a gallery full of paintings, a growth experience, a poem, a computer operating system)? Only you can answer what role meaningful learning should take in your life, but I would expect it would be very large, if you are an intelligent and curious person. Given that "meaningful learning" is somewhat unspecific I would also expect it to happen everywhere.

One problem with education is how it's structured, and how the learning process is approached and directed in a structured setting. Some researchers have defined this problem and propose an interesting solution you have likely already heard of, which can be found here: The Theory Underlying Concept Maps and How to Construct and Use Them

Change how conceptual information is structured in a way that is more concise, and you can greatly improve the efficacy with which that information is translated and encoded. When you improve the specific ways in which people learn, education becomes meaningful to them again. Concept mapping is fascinating and fun; I plan to organize my next power point presentation into a series of concept maps to see if it improves reception of my message and has any effect on keeping my audience's attention span.

[Doku]

The short answer to your question, in my opinion, is: Formal education is necessary only to the point that it is required to legally do whatever it is that you do for income.
Examples: medical doctor, electrician, etc.

Beyond that, I do not believe that formal education is necessary for anything. It does, however, make many things much easier. It is easier to get a job as a computer programmer if you have a BS/MS, but there are some employers (like myself) that simply look at how good you actually are at what it is that you do (I have one guy on payroll that has his GED, and I'm paying him a six figure salary)

That being said, I do agree with Gatto, Holt, the Moores, and the Domans. My wife and I are homeschooling, and will continue to do so until our children go to college, go to work, start their own business, or otherwise stand on their own two feet.

[Lupe]

this is a great site for argument against formal education: Education

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Lupe

this is a great site for argument against formal education: Education

Thanks!!

[Ekb]

I'm want to go back to school. I think...

[Orecle]

Formal Education is absolutly necessary and warranted, and fantasising otherwise is like fantasising about a world with no money.

Formal education is about creating a uniformity of standards among people. So if someone got a 1st class degree, you can more often than not have faith in their ability to learn at a certain level.

I dont think people have a problem with learning, I think it is the testing (and sometimes failing) they dont like.

would you really like a world with no formal standerdised system of learning?

When you hire someone for a repair service (health, car, computer), besides word of mouth how are you suppose to qualify them , espiecally before they build up a good word of mouth reputation?

Lets take a field where people dont need formal qualifications. Motor Mechanics. Any one who has ever had a car go wrong knows you play russian roulette when picking a mechanic, including official dealerships - because there is no formal qualifications needed to say what standard.

Can you imagine how the medical profession would be if people did not have to be educated to a certain formal standard. can you imagine the same for airline pilots, engineers, and myriads of other professions that need formal qualification.

Let me ask another hypothetical question
If we took away formal driving lessons and tests, do you think the roads will remain just as safe?

With formal education comes formal testing, and a formal grade that shows us (society) how good the applicant is, rather than rely on how good the applicant says they are. Are there people who are overlooked becoz of lack of formal education, YES. and some companies have let some real gems go as a result. But how often does that happen? The fact is most stars ome from educational institutes.

ie everyone uses the fact that Bill gates and I think Spielberg didnt have formal degrees. - I accept that. But how many of their employees are formally educated to a university standard?

[Brutha]

When you hire someone for a repair service (health, car, computer), besides word of mouth how are you suppose to qualify them , espiecally before they build up a good word of mouth reputation?

Computer repairing isn't a skill for which there's formal schooling.
Car repairing isn't either anything that has to do with university education.

With formal education comes formal testing, and a formal grade that shows us (society) how good the applicant is, rather than rely on how good the applicant says they are.

Do you know the grade that your doctor good at universtiy? From how many other local doctors do you know the grade to compare them?

From the Universtiy of Chicago:
"As far as performance in college is concerned, there is not, as I said, any national evidence that level of performance in college has more than a minor effect on later things like income. And in my alumni data, there is absolutely no correlation whatever between GPA at the University of Chicago and current income. "

[eliaino]

Originally Posted by Orecle

Formal education is about creating a uniformity of standards among people. So if someone got a 1st class degree, you can more often than not have faith in their ability to learn at a certain level.

Please think, for a second, about the word "uniformity." Why do you think it is needed?

[SarahJaynee]

I am from the UK and Ive noticed the UK places alot less emphasis on degrees than the US. I suspect this is all about money as most degrees are heavily subsidised in the UK and not money-making institutes like the US.
I always think the question employers should ask is "when was you last formal education (if formal education is important to them)"? What good is it to know what grade you got 10,10, 30 years ago if there is nothing in between that?

My husband is a great real-life example. He knew he wanted to be a trader on the open-cry in London. He phoned all the companies and asked what qualifications he needed and they told him "none really, just be 18". He left school at 16 after his GCSE's and wrote 108 letters to try and be a runner/dogsbody for a floor trader. (This was before email). He got a job and had his own traders by age 19.
At age 35 he took a position which is CEO of an investment bank. People always say you CAN'T do that, you are too young, you don't have a degree, you don't have your Masters etc etc. But he did it an he has done a fantastic job.
Incidentally he hardly ever hires someone who has a degree. He prefers intelligence mixed with ownership mixed with courage. It isn't very courageous to finish high school then head straight into university. He always looks for at least a gap year where someone does something that really speaks about who they are.
My husband doesn't stop learning, he is always learning. He has had his forays into public speaking, he is writing a book (fiction) and he has just booked up for an 8week 3d and 4d computer animation course just because it sounds like fun!
Oh and we homeschool our kids too :-)

[alainplus]

Going school is giving someone else responsibility to put things into your head. While that's useful in some respects like technical things. I think students in addition to formal schooling should have their own extracurricular studies.

[Eric Revelin]

Formal education is a soul-stealing institution that prepares you for a safe life of guaranteed drudgery. Nothing will strip you of your creativity and your sense of adventure faster than trying to get a degree.

I have nothing against education. I love education. People need education. I hate schooling. I hate the idea that's planted in our skulls that we cannot learn what we need by our own efforts, under our own motivation, and that any milestone you make is worthless unless it's related to an assignment.

I would never go to a doctor that hasn't been trained, but is the current system necessary to ensure we get well-trained doctors? Why force a prospective medical student to go through university before attending medical school when most of what they learn there won't be applied? Why issue grades when they ultimately say nothing about how capable you are at what you do?

People go to school to get some fancy letters at the end of their name. Whether or not they come out of it with an education depends on the student, but if so much is on them why do we have the school in the first place?

I will be all for schooling when the following changes are made:

1. It's dirt cheap. Something that's supposedly vital to your well-being should not cost thousands upon hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know the argument is that once you've got the degree your salary will be high enough that you can pay it off easy, but said argument doesn't reflect the reality I've seen. No, in the reality I live in Biology students have lucrative management positions at my local Wendy's. Which brings me to my second point...

2. They provide quality guidance beyond, "You need to get a degree! Any degree! YOU'RE %&$*ED WITHOUT A DEGREE!" All it does is stress the student out and distance them from what they really want to do. Furthermore, you've got a bunch of stoned slackers that go to college not because they want to improve themselves, not because they want to learn, but because they think college is nothing more than a money making scheme that'll put 'em on easy street. The problem is that that's how it's marketed, and worse it fails to live up to its promise.

3. They need to decide what college is really for. Is it vocational training? Is it to expand your mind and broaden your horizons? Because trying to do both of those things isn't working out so well. When a degree is required for pretty rudimentary jobs you've got people who are going through the system just so they can find work and extra course load is accomplishing nothing aside from eating at their time. It's bloated, inefficient, and fails to accurately account for the student's needs.

I can keep going but I'm gonna stop before I get carried away. Again, I'm all for standards, I'm all for education, but we need to question the value of the standards we have because looking at the world around me they seem pretty hollow.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by eliaino

Please think, for a second, about the word "uniformity." Why do you think it is needed?

Uniformity of quality and standards. When you buy 1 thing, you can be sure it will be consistent. Why its needed is obvious.

Take Steve Pavlina. The way he writes, one can tell he is an educated thinker. He thinks very systematically and logically. His articles are well structured, so if you were to recommend him to teach a friend how to write articles, you can be sure of the uniformity of standards he would teach.

In contrast, to somebody who is sometimeish.

Think about it. If you were to start a personal development blog on Monday and you had to candidates

1. Has a 3 first class degrees in philosophy, creative writing and english, all from Harvard

2. Had the same degrees from the university of mexico,

without interviewing them or reading there Cv's, just going by what you know of both Uni's which would you pick?

I would pick Harvard and so would most. Why? Because of the reputation harvard has for uniformily bring out students who o on to world class excellence.

To get into Harvard you have to already show a level of high standards. So in Harvard there is a uniformity of excellence as oppose to a local neighbourhood college

Any body/company who has built a solid reputation good or bad, has done so after being judged on the uniformity in the quality of work put out.

Why do Japanese cars have such a good reputation? Uniformity of quality standards. 99% of the time, they are known for quality? The source? Education. In the east, they place a very high value on education

[Orecle]

[

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Formal education is a soul-stealing institution that prepares you for a safe life of guaranteed drudgery. Nothing will strip you of your creativity and your sense of adventure faster than trying to get a degree.

So all those nice doctors, and scientist, and computer engineers, architects, designers, chemists, biologists, engineers, geologists, that have built every luxury item you and the world pamper themselves with have no souls. Most of the technologies that help us have our 'sense of adventure' were created by those educated folks. The planes, trains and automobiles you use to travel. The cables you use for internet ao to speak down the phone.

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

I have nothing against education. I love education. People need education. I hate schooling. I hate the idea that's planted in our skulls that we cannot learn what we need by our own efforts, under our own motivation, and that any milestone you make is worthless unless it's related to an assignment.

Your opening statement kinda makes me think you do have something against education. Can you imagine if your lover says to you "Eric, I have nothing against you, but you are a soul-stealing....., nothing will make me lose my sense of creativity and sense of adventure, than being with you"

You cannot learn ALL or even a hundredthyou need by your own efforts, take a look at any wealthy person, not one of them didnt solely by themselves. All the truths and discoveries we take for granted were discovered, researched and developed by many people.

Every living expert on this planet has learnt from somebody before them.

Open any info book, and see how many people were referenced in its creation.

Would you really want to go and get the info on your own? If your car broke down today, or your house disintegrated into literally bricks, cement and foundations, would you be able to put it back without extensive formal education? Lets say you could, lets take away all materials and give you just a plot of land. Would you be able to build a home as fine as the one you are reading this thread from?

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

I would never go to a doctor that hasn't been trained, but is the current system necessary to ensure we get well-trained doctors? Why force a prospective medical student to go through university before attending medical school when most of what they learn there won't be applied? Why issue grades when they ultimately say nothing about how capable you are at what you do?

Can you think of a better system. Why do people keep saying University grades dont show competence. Do you really beleive that a law graduate from Harvard who passed with flying colours will not show more competence than someone who barely scrapped in with a degree from Aruba? Just because alot of talented people, chose to scaunder their talents, doesnt mean they are not capable. Bill gates may have not gone UNI, but he is am adamont pusher of further education, google it if you dont beleive me. Even if Big Bill didnt graduate. 1. He is more than educated to that standard, 2. And a very big 2. Most of microsoft are graduates from very good uni's, and this goes for many of the IT world class companies.

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

People go to school to get some fancy letters at the end of their name. Whether or not they come out of it with an education depends on the student, but if so much is on them why do we have the school in the first place?

People dont go to school for fancy names. An employer isnt going to pay you 100000 per year (unless in government or have a militant union) unless you produce something tangible

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

I will be all for schooling when the following changes are made:

1. It's dirt cheap. Something that's supposedly vital to your well-being should not cost thousands upon hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know the argument is that once you've got the degree your salary will be high enough that you can pay it off easy, but said argument doesn't reflect the reality I've seen. No, in the reality I live in Biology students have lucrative management positions at my local Wendy's. Which brings me to my second point...

Why should it be cheap. What if you had to go and discover the knowledge yourself? And there are also non-graduates who are cleaning toilets in your wendies, The difference is when these graduates pull their fingers out of their asses, depending on how well they have done, they can travel the world and many companies will respect their degrees (or equivelent certificate)

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

2. They provide quality guidance beyond, "You need to get a degree! Any degree! YOU'RE %&$*ED WITHOUT A DEGREE!" All it does is stress the student out and distance them from what they really want to do. Furthermore, you've got a bunch of stoned slackers that go to college not because they want to improve themselves, not because they want to learn, but because they think college is nothing more than a money making scheme that'll put 'em on easy street. The problem is that that's how it's marketed, and worse it fails to live up to its promise.

I agree with you here, but at the end of the day. You do not get a 1st class degree slacking. If you come out with a 3rd class, you had better have a silver tongue come the day of your interview

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

3. They need to decide what college is really for. Is it vocational training? Is it to expand your mind and broaden your horizons? Because trying to do both of those things isn't working out so well. When a degree is required for pretty rudimentary jobs you've got people who are going through the system just so they can find work and extra course load is accomplishing nothing aside from eating at their time. It's bloated, inefficient, and fails to accurately account for the student's needs. I can keep going but I'm gonna stop before I get carried away. Again, I'm all for standards, I'm all for education, but we need to question the value of the standards we have because looking at the world around me they seem pretty hollow.

This is simple. Whoever thinks/knows they can get by without one give it a shot. The kids I mentor I tell them this

If you dont know, wat you want to do, then further your education. I would rather a 20s have a degree in business, than 5 yrs experience in Mcd. Besides he could do McD part time and study. Wat I dont want is 7 yrs of McD at 18000 per year, with no savings to show for it

I however, you have a trade or a business idea or field that doesnt need a degree, then dont do the degree. However do any courses that make you better at your trade.

But the truth is most teens have no clue, so they flip burgers or shelf stack, just to be broke and valued at $8 or £8 per hour at 30yrs old. Cant afford a car or a hse, so they room share and become very jaded at life

[Brutha]

Take someone like Dimitri Gaskin. He will probably get hired from google or any tech startup when he leaves high school even without a degree in software engeeniering or good high school marks.

Why? Because he programs a lot. If you program a lot and maybe contribute too open source program to get a portfolio it's possible to get IT jobs.

Bill gates may have not gone UNI, but he is am adamont pusher of further education, google it if you dont beleive me.

Bill Gates thinks that general educations isn't as good as it should be and therefore pushes programs to improve education

Your opening statement kinda makes me think you do have something against education.

You assume that what happens in school has something to do with education.
Jonathan Drori makes the case that when students leave school they often have a poorer understanding of how gravity and magnetism work as they did as 7 year olds before they got *physics* schooling.

What if you had to go and discover the knowledge yourself?

Actually it's pretty easy to find most of the knowledge on the internet or in a libary. Even buying textbooks is a lot cheaper.

Do you really beleive that a law graduate from Harvard who passed with flying colours will not show more competence than someone who barely scrapped in with a degree from Aruba?

Don't confuse correlation with causation.

Take Steve Pavlina. The way he writes, one can tell he is an educated thinker. He thinks very systematically and logically.

I don't think that Steve's education came primarily from his professors at university but from a lot of self development.

Why do Japanese cars have such a good reputation? Uniformity of quality standards. 99% of the time, they are known for quality? The source? Education.

I think that the difference between Japanese and US cars doesn't lie in education or you would have to conclude that MIT and harvard are crappy at schooling (with in itself doesn't help your argument about going to university) but lies in a lot of cultural paradigms.
Detroit runs on Pay for Performance with produces short term thinking when Toyota runs on continous improvement.

[lifetimelearner]

I have seen so many students have mental breakdowns because of their parents pressure on them to be excellent students -I was one of them
I learned how to memorize a lot of info -but learned nothing

take the pressure off and make school a fun learning establishment and the kids would be a lot better off

of course you have to deal with overcrowding,peer pressure and bad teachers too

I had my first panic attack in 5th grade when the teacher announced on the
1st day of class that we were going to take a test and if we failed we would fail for the whole year -it was a joke
but a mean one

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Take someone like Dimitri Gaskin. He will probably get hired from google or any tech startup when he leaves high school even without a degree in software engeeniering or good high school marks.

Why? Because he programs a lot. If you program a lot and maybe contribute too open source program to get a portfolio it's possible to get IT jobs.

The flaw in this thread is you can only point to a few examples. If you even watched the clip, the program the kid was speaking on was designed to get UNIVERSITY students onto open source software. The kid is exceptionally smart and more than gets FANTASTIC grades. he is probably more brilliant than most of the kids on the planet.

Again out of the 1000s that work in tech companies how many (including the drop-outs who were offered jobs) have been educated to degree level? There is no point, pointing to super smart kids. They are not representative of the normal population. Can 100000 only high school adults beat University educated adults for places to the top companies?

Originally Posted by Brutha

Bill Gates thinks that general educations isn't as good as it should be and therefore pushes programs to improve education
You assume that what happens in school has something to do with education.
Jonathan Drori makes the case that when students leave school they often have a poorer understanding of how gravity and magnetism work as they did as 7 year olds before they got *physics* schooling.

And how many students do you think were used for this observation. Do you think it was even 0.05 % By the way, what are you implying? Is it that a 7 yr knows more physics than a graduate? If you say no, then what was the purpose of you showing it? Does this show the need for less or more and better quality formal education?

Yes, Bill Gates does think American education is below par. In fact it appalls him so much that he wants to see MUCH MORE STUDENTS IN HIGHER EDUCATION. He also said he is annoyed that india is graduating 1 million more than the Usa and China is doing alot more

Actually it's pretty easy to find most of the knowledge on the internet or in a libary. Even buying textbooks is a lot cheaper.

And where do you think the info on the internet and the textbooks came from. Some random person sitting in their bedroom? or educated folk?

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't think that Steve's education came primarily from his professors at university but from a lot of self development.

Steve did not learn to write as well and as methodically as he had by himself.

Originally Posted by Brutha

I think that the difference between Japanese and US cars doesn't lie in education or you would have to conclude that MIT and harvard are crappy at schooling (with in itself doesn't help your argument about going to university) but lies in a lot of cultural paradigms.
Detroit runs on Pay for Performance with produces short term thinking when Toyota runs on continous improvement.

And who do you think gave the Japanese the concept of continuous improvement. I will tell you

Edward Demmings

DOCTOR EDWARD DEMMING

UNIVERSITY EDUCATED BRILLIANT STATISTICIAN DOCTOR EDWARD DEMMINGS

And he showed them through detailed statistical analysis (learnt at uni) that quality wins the day

People can crap on education all they like, but everybody knows that nearly every technological advancement through out mankind has been through educational institutes and/or individuals trained in them. The funny thing is the pioneers that didnt go through formal education push for it just as hard.

Uni graduates have and do out earn non graduates in the Usa, Britain and Most if not all of europe and Asia. The jobs that

So I will bow out of this thread. If you all think education is crap, prove it and let your kids teach themselves. Pointing to the few who are successful without education is a waste of time. Graduates earn more and provide most of the advances we enjoy on this planet including the internet which you get your info from

Peace

[Bud921]

I recently wrote an article on why our current education system is failing.. I'd love to hear your thoughts.


Why Our Current Education System Is Failing

[Bud921]

Our current education system is simply brainwashing us to become slaves in the work force. We must learn to find our passions and live them.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by eliaino

If you're having problems with education?, like I am,
please discuss them in this thread

haven't read this thread yet, but most likely you're a typical "born genius" , I tell & convince kids daily.
thus if you live particularly in the usa, you might want to read:
John Taylor Gatto - Challenging the Myths of Modern Schooling
Quite an eye-opener, into why & how most current populations behave 'brainwashed, & dumbed-down'.
(btw, was 1st. schooled in Europe, & on emigrating I was shocked where in vocabulary, math, science, & pe. american classmates were.)
And 'formal'-educ. in uni is often more problematic, as far as ego.
Beyond that tragic state of affairs, lies the hope that you can remember:
1. to continue... on-target, asking more detailed questions...

2. Observe problems, from the advantage of regarding them as puzzles, & challenges to be solved

3. Start from your own hypotheses, gathering awarenesses & materials for your own experiments; and

4. Most important, exercise caution re 'conclusions': too many false 'links' formed, often then are assumed as 'causes', only to turn out erroneous & misleading. - Take full advantage of keeping your own mind OPEN

Most important, resuscitate your passion of learning... we were all conceived & born to enjoy!! just this. Here's the thing: Simply explore your options & choices, & passionately chose a FUN path in a self-directed way towards a fruitful endeavor. What do you want to do, really?

and a grad-degree?, no that ain't necessary, rest assured; as many people have proven. Many productively contribute, & enjoy peace of mind, doing what he & she loves... the best to you!

[Eric Revelin]

Originally Posted by Orecle

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So all those nice doctors, and scientist, and computer engineers, architects, designers, chemists, biologists, engineers, geologists, that have built every luxury item you and the world pamper themselves with have no souls. Most of the technologies that help us have our 'sense of adventure' were created by those educated folks. The planes, trains and automobiles you use to travel. The cables you use for internet ao to speak down the phone.

Either they thrived in the system or they kept their souls alive in spite of it. Regardless, there's no reason the current system is necessary for them to learn what they did.

Your opening statement kinda makes me think you do have something against education. Can you imagine if your lover says to you "Eric, I have nothing against you, but you are a soul-stealing....., nothing will make me lose my sense of creativity and sense of adventure, than being with you"

I'm afraid you've mistaken my lover for a bloated whore. I'd never have an occasion to say that to her, and if I did she would not be my lover anymore.

I'm deeply in love with learning, so much so that I cannot stomach when imposters take her place. How can I look kindly upon School when she prevents me from knowing my lover's touch?

Learning calls to me and Curiosity leads the way. Only by their aid have I shed the chains of my mental prison, a place madam School helped build.

You cannot learn ALL or even a hundredthyou need by your own efforts, take a look at any wealthy person, not one of them didnt solely by themselves. All the truths and discoveries we take for granted were discovered, researched and developed by many people.

And I suggested every person start from scratch, discovering all there is to know entirely on their own? If you're reading a book you're collaborating with other minds. There is no reason, given the availability of information in the modern age, that you cannot find all you could ever possibly want/need to know about a subject.

Every living expert on this planet has learnt from somebody before them.

Humans are constantly learning from their environment. This is as evident as "apples are red (except when they're green)."

Open any info book, and see how many people were referenced in its creation.

Yeah. Again, I never questioned the value of cooperation.

Would you really want to go and get the info on your own? If your car broke down today, or your house disintegrated into literally bricks, cement and foundations, would you be able to put it back without extensive formal education? Lets say you could, lets take away all materials and give you just a plot of land. Would you be able to build a home as fine as the one you are reading this thread from?

I would think that if my house were to be disintegrated there's nothing I could do about it no matter how well educated I am. In fact most people, even educated ones, wouldn't have that skill set.

"On your own" does not mean "live like you're the only person on the planet."

Can you think of a better system. Why do people keep saying University grades dont show competence. Do you really beleive that a law graduate from Harvard who passed with flying colours will not show more competence than someone who barely scrapped in with a degree from Aruba? Just because alot of talented people, chose to scaunder their talents, doesnt mean they are not capable. Bill gates may have not gone UNI, but he is am adamont pusher of further education, google it if you dont beleive me. Even if Big Bill didnt graduate. 1. He is more than educated to that standard, 2. And a very big 2. Most of microsoft are graduates from very good uni's, and this goes for many of the IT world class companies.

Squander...? Who says they squandered their talents if they didn't go to university? That's a societal assumption. It has little bearing on success.

Bill Gates is a horrible example. He was born into a wealthy family and attended Harvard. The only reason he dropped out is because the school couldn't meet his needs. He is very much a product of the system. Of course he's going to push it.

Am I denying his success? No. Successful people come from all walks of life, even privileged households that can afford really expensive computers.

As for a better system, yes. Yes I can think of a better system. It involves more hands-on education and allows more room for independent thought. It's not that hard to improve on what we have now.

People dont go to school for fancy names. An employer isnt going to pay you 100000 per year (unless in government or have a militant union) unless you produce something tangible

On the contrary, quite a few people get paid to do nothing of worth. But that's beside the point; you can do that with or without a degree.

Is every degree a fancy piece of paper granting you nothing but the right to be pretentious? No. But it is when you need a BS to work a desk job. To clarify, degrees are devalued when employers require them for jobs that shouldn't require them.

Why should it be cheap.

Wait, you're arguing that education is extremely valuable, perhaps vital to your present and future well-being, and you're asking why it should be cheap?

It should be cheap because it's vital. And because a lot of what colleges offer is bloat. (IE, luxuries like on campus gyms.) And because you're going in with the promise of a high income with no guarantee you'll actually get it. (Psychology is a great example of something that requires a lot of schooling, tons of debt, with little reward immediately after leaving school. They don't have a decent income until they've been practicing for decade or so.)

What if you had to go and discover the knowledge yourself? And there are also non-graduates who are cleaning toilets in your wendies, The difference is when these graduates pull their fingers out of their asses, depending on how well they have done, they can travel the world and many companies will respect their degrees (or equivelent certificate)

Again with the, "what if you had to discover everything yourself?" Stop beating the strawman. There's nothing left but twigs.

Not all graduates are working at fast food restaurants because they have their fingers up their asses. Either they can't find work in their field or they got suckered into a worthless degree. The only reason they'll get any respect for that is because society praises people who submit to the system. Many end up going to a trade school after college just so they can find a decent paying job. (For the record, when I talk about education I'm referring to colleges, not trade schools. They could probably use improvement too (everything can) but at least they know what they are and it's rare it doesn't pay off.)

I agree with you here, but at the end of the day. You do not get a 1st class degree slacking. If you come out with a 3rd class, you had better have a silver tongue come the day of your interview

Considering the number of people who can't do their jobs I'd say you're half right. At the end of the day good connections will take you farther than nearly anything else.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Either they thrived in the system or they kept their souls alive in spite of it. Regardless, there's no reason the current system is necessary for them to learn what they did.

Please prove wat you have just asserted? Wat has this got to do with their souls? Did they not choose their positions?

Pray do tell, wat system is necessary, since you feel this one isnt

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

I'm afraid you've mistaken my lover for a bloated whore. I'd never have an occasion to say that to her, and if I did she would not be my lover anymore.

You obviously didnt read the post properly. I was refering to her saying it TO YOU

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

I'm deeply in love with learning, so much so that I cannot stomach when imposters take her place. How can I look kindly upon School when she prevents me from knowing my lover's touch?

Who my dear sir, is the imposter? How does formal education stop you from learning? The last time i checked higher education was an option

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Learning calls to me and Curiosity leads the way. Only by their aid have I shed the chains of my mental prison, a place madam School helped build.

You can wax poetic as much as you like, school did you much more benifit than you acknowledge. Take a trip to any 3rd world country and you will understand and sit down with people with no form of formal education from a young age. Before the industrial revolution, when there was no formal education. There is a 99% chance you would be a farmer or a soldier. You were at the mercy of the seasons and tyrant or saint for a king/queen

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

And I suggested every person start from scratch, discovering all there is to know entirely on their own? If you're reading a book you're collaborating with other minds. There is no reason, given the availability of information in the modern age, that you cannot find all you could ever possibly want/need to know about a subject.

Without having a formal school of learning where will one learn chemistry, physics, biology, engineering, IT to the highest standards. Where will one have access to the best teachers? Do not the world best educators not have formal systems of teaching?

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Humans are constantly learning from their environment. This is as evident as "apples are red (except when they're green)."

So do animals, but I dont remember any of them building skyscrapers and internet, or anything for that matter!!!! Learning from your environment has solely not gotten us where we are today. It is learning from past masters in a formal fashion

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

I would think that if my house were to be disintegrated there's nothing I could do about it no matter how well educated I am. In fact most people, even educated ones, wouldn't have that skill set.

That doesnt make sense. The builder of your house didnt learn by osmosis. If you had thorough education of architecture and building (like the guys who designed your house,) how would you not know what to do? How did your house get there in the 1st place?

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Squander...? Who says they squandered their talents if they didn't go to university? That's a societal assumption. It has little bearing on success.

Bill Gates is a horrible example. He was born into a wealthy family and attended Harvard. The only reason he dropped out is because the school couldn't meet his needs. He is very much a product of the system. Of course he's going to push it.

Whats a societal assumption?

Paris Hilton was born of wealthy family, I dont see her doing what Bill does. Bill is a terrific example, Why? He is the poster child for the 'dont need education' brigade. I beleive Bill is one of the makers of the system. Bill gates through microsoft has changed the way we learn, formal and informally

ps. Whose is not a product of the system? C
pss can you show me a working example of a better system than the one we have that will cater for the billions on this planet

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Am I denying his success? No. Successful people come from all walks of life, even privileged households that can afford really expensive computers.

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

As for a better system, yes. Yes I can think of a better system. It involves more hands-on education and allows more room for independent thought. It's not that hard to improve on what we have now.

And how will you test this independant thought? How would you sort out useless thought from stuff you can do something with? Define hands on education? To be paid for by whom? Who is coming to learn from whom, when will actual teaching take place? Why cant people exercise independant thought when they get home?

I will tell you why allowing room for independant thought is not the panacea people think it is. The same as parents who are not strict on discipline: The learner does not have the benifit of foresight, like the teacher does. The teacher has been through trial and error. Can you imagine teaching a room with 30 students independantly telling you what they think, wen if they had listened you could have showed them, most of their thoughts are perfectly natural (subject wise) for their development but certainly not independant or original.

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

On the contrary, quite a few people get paid to do nothing of worth. But that's beside the point; you can do that with or without a degree.

Really, give me 5 jobs and website links of 5 private sector (for profit) jobs where you are paid to do nothing. (No government jobs, cos I do beleive they fall into that category.)

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Is every degree a fancy piece of paper granting you nothing but the right to be pretentious? No. But it is when you need a BS to work a desk job. To clarify, degrees are devalued when employers require them for jobs that shouldn't require them.

Devalued to whom? Does not an employer have the right to say who qualifies for their job, just as you have a right which business to patronise with your custom?

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Wait, you're arguing that education is extremely valuable, perhaps vital to your present and future well-being, and you're asking why it should be cheap?

It should be cheap because it's vital. And because a lot of what colleges offer is bloat. (IE, luxuries like on campus gyms.) And because you're going in with the promise of a high income with no guarantee you'll actually get it. (Psychology is a great example of something that requires a lot of schooling, tons of debt, with little reward immediately after leaving school. They don't have a decent income until they've been practicing for decade or so.)

Gold is valuable, does it mean it should be cheap? No. Houses are extremely valuable, does it mean they should be cheap? No. Computers are valuable, but there aremany who cant afford them. Should they be made cheap? No Again anyone is free, not to do higher education. No body is forcing them. We live in a capitalist society, where anyone can name the price and have it met or ignored

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Again with the, "what if you had to discover everything yourself?" Stop beating the strawman. There's nothing left but twigs.

I will beat the straw man till its understood. With the twigs I will rebuild, then start beating again

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Not all graduates are working at fast food restaurants because they have their fingers up their asses. Either they can't find work in their field or they got suckered into a worthless degree. The only reason they'll get any respect for that is because society praises people who submit to the system. Many end up going to a trade school after college just so they can find a decent paying job. (For the record, when I talk about education I'm referring to colleges, not trade schools. They could probably use improvement too (everything can) but at least they know what they are and it's rare it doesn't pay off.)

How does one get suckered into a degree?

The beauty of a degree, is other vocations will take you as long as you have one, irrespective of subject learnt.

Ps In the Uk, a lot of trade school taught plumbers, electricians, and other manual labour professions are out of work because of cheap labour from eastern europeans. The same with IT, where alot of people chose to get specific courses (mcse, sap, cisco, ccna) So no, trade school does not always pay off

Originally Posted by Eric Revelin

Considering the number of people who can't do their jobs I'd say you're half right. At the end of the day good connections will take you farther than nearly anything else.

Good connections may get you a job, but it wont save you or your rep if you are crap at your job. The only place you can pull that off is government work

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by Bud921

Our current education system is simply brainwashing us to become slaves in the work force. We must learn to find our passions and live them.

Really, for example? Want to know the difference between slavery and the work force? Slavery you have no choice.

Why are people mad at a system that gives you choice whether to sell your soul for a paycheck?

The truth is people are addicted to their lifestyles (paid for by their job of choice, which they sware they hate), while getting mad at themselves for what they CHOOSEEEEEEE to do to maintain it. Like a gold digger who marries someone unattractive for money, then complains when asked to do chores or sexual bedroom antics.

Truth is its an exchange. Work place gets workers, and you get money for desired lifestyle.

SIMPLE

There is no brainwashing. Its a choice. and this is why people are so angry. But they are not angry with the system!!!!!!!!

THEY ARE ANGRY WITH THEMSELVES

They faced with the reality of what they TRUELY VALUE

If a man chooses to spend his money on whores, alcohol and drugs rather than his family, at the time of comsuption this is what he values most. He can curse Alcohol distributer, pimps and columbian and afghan poppie farmers, but at the end of the day, what will eat him is the fact that he CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSES to do it to himself.

He is the sole ARBITER OF HIS DOOM. He chooses not to exercise willpower, like so many former addicts have and do

[Brutha]

Get a job - Joel on Software is a good proposal to get a more skill based way of accessing job candidats instead of which university they were going to.

Who my dear sir, is the imposter? How does formal education stop you from learning? The last time i checked higher education was an option

It's about truth in advertising. Universities are really great at advertising themselves.
Just because the label says 'education' doesn't mean that you actually get one.

Good connections may get you a job, but it wont save you or your rep if you are crap at your job.

For most jobs you just don't learn the skills you need to be good at university.

Getting a job through connections and learning the skills you need for the job through a commitment to personal development and help from other people is a way many people archieved wealth.

Gold is valuable, does it mean it should be cheap?

Gold hasn't much inherent value.

It's only valuable when it's expensive.