I want to be a sheep

[Plays With Life]

I've known a few people, in my life, who wanted all their decisions to be made by other people. This blew me away! Has anyone else met someone like this?

Do some people actually Want to be sheep? (I'm sure they wouldn't think of it in those terms :P )

[Plays With Life]

More details: I was talking to a girl I knew, about decisions in life. She told me that whenever she had a decision to make, for example between two jobs, she would always go to someone else to make the decision for her. She couldn't - didn't want to - make the decision on her own. She wanted to be told what to do by another person.

[Plays With Life]

Also - I was talking to a different girl I know, more recently, about capitalism and society-models. She was arguing (strongly, vehemently in fact) that capitalism was good because it gave people purpose in life. ie, their employment / jobs. What?! These two things blew me away. Like - did she not feel able to give herself a purpose on her own, that she needed a job to give her a purpose in life??

That sounds like wanting to be a sheep, to me.

lol, I know I'm replying to my own thread, but these just came to mind after I posted it.

[QuestForBalance]

Most people are sheep. They would rather have someone tell them what to do because:
a) it saves them the effort of thinking, researching and coming up with a plan.
b) it spares them the responsibility for consequences of a bad decision.

It is easier to just go along with what others are doing than to stop and really think about what YOU want to be doing. I'd like to be a shepherd.

[David Cain]

I think we're all sheep in some way, to some degree. Nobody realizes exactly how they've been influenced by others. It's far easier to recognize it in other people. I'm sure everyone thinks they are thinking entirely for themselves, but I would guess just about all of us are running mostly off of the beliefs of our parents, friends, cultural traditions and media figures.

Question every belief you have on a regular basis, that's the only defense. I wouldn't concern yourself too much with what other people believe.

[Plays With Life]

@ David Cain - That's an interesting perspective!

[jendoe]

Originally Posted by Plays With Life

More details: I was talking to a girl I knew, about decisions in life. She told me that whenever she had a decision to make, for example between two jobs, she would always go to someone else to make the decision for her. She couldn't - didn't want to - make the decision on her own. She wanted to be told what to do by another person.

Hmm... this strikes me as odd. Not the behavior, I'm sure there are plenty of people like that, but... the level of self-insight (or honesty, to admit it to someone else) surprises me.

Something just strikes me as weird in this interaction...

Your other friend, who believes that people get their purpose in life from work - I can understand where she's coming from, actually. Think about it, for most of us, the bulk of our day is spent in work-related activities, and most of us strongly identify with our careers. For example, one of the first questions when you meet someone new is - "So, what do you do?" Also, these days, it's been my experience that we spend more and more time at work, to the point where most people end up socializing more with "work-friends" than from people outside of their job. Involuntary loss of the job can often be very stressful, not just because of the income, but because of the loss of identity.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but perhaps a natural outcome of how our society is currently organized.

I think it's much healthier, and happier, if you can figure out your purpose first, then create a job that lets you accomplish that But how many people *think* that, let alone figure out how to do it?

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by jendoe

Hmm... this strikes me as odd. Not the behavior, I'm sure there are plenty of people like that, but... the level of self-insight (or honesty, to admit it to someone else) surprises me.

That's exactly what I thought! She actually realized she was doing it, but consciously chose to continue doing it. I had always thought, previous to this, that this was only an unconscious, automatic kind of behaviour. She wasn't embarrassed or uncomfortable about it. It wasn't something she wanted to change. It was just a matter-of-fact observation of herself. She was OK with it - it was acceptable for her.

This is what got me thinking - well, are there actually some people who are happier when their lives are on the whole, directed by other people? I mean, are some people happiest when they're sheep?

I know I'm not.

[jendoe]

Wow - that's bizarre. She didn't seem depressed or anything to you? (I can imagine having that attitude in a state of depression, because really, everything seems too hard at that point and it's a relief to have other people telling you waht to do.)

I don't know, it's hard to imagine, but... it seems like everyone has their own internal logic. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes, when all we can see is the external behavior, it can seem outright crazy, but if we could understand how their brain was wired and how they got to where they are, it somehow makes sense - to them. There's a logic there, it just doesn't always match up to the real world

Is she very young? Maybe she just hasn't gotten enough bad advice yet from people to realize why that's not such a great plan !!!

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by David Cain

I think we're all sheep in some way, to some degree. Nobody realizes exactly how they've been influenced by others. It's far easier to recognize it in other people. I'm sure everyone thinks they are thinking entirely for themselves, but I would guess just about all of us are running mostly off of the beliefs of our parents, friends, cultural traditions and media figures.

Question every belief you have on a regular basis, that's the only defense. I wouldn't concern yourself too much with what other people believe.

I am the exception to the rule you state here.

When you begin to question your beliefs, you end up adopting beliefs that improve your life rather than make you a good cog in the societal machine.

People don't think for themselves because reality is absolutely frightening. For example, to consider the possibility that the U.S. government is run by a cartel of bankers is to blaspheme against the nanny state, which people have come to associate with their sense of security about the world. We're all Uncle Sam's spoiled adult children.

[Plays With Life]

She was 28 when we were talking about this. She wasn't depressed or upset at all, it was just a normal conversation. I always assumed people want to make their own decisions about everything, probably because I'm so much that way myself. It's really important to me. I have some kind of aversion to someone else deciding what I do.

But after thinking about this, I started to think - well maybe it's just not that much of a value for some people? Maybe what they want is to do things, and to accomplish things, and to push themselves and challenge themselves - but the ways they do that don't really matter? They'd rather not be bothered with deciding what, exactly, to do. Just tell me what to do so I can go ahead and do it, so I don't have to be bothered with thinking about it. I do put a lot of time and effort into deciding, sometimes. I guess it could be simpler and easier to simply not have to do that whole thing, in life.

Along these lines, a male friend of mine once said something to me. He said that he had sometimes thought that being in a cult would be really easy and comfortable. Because then he wouldn't have to think about what to do.

At the time I was like

I guess this is probably the kind of person who is drawn to military service, too. "Just tell me what to do, and I'll do it".

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

... is to blaspheme against the nanny state, which people have come to associate with their sense of security about the world.

Lol, the nanny state. That's a good point.

[Lauxa]

I'd love to be a sheep if I could find a good shepherd.

If you are doing your own thing, then you are limited to your own efforts. But if you can join with a group of people doing something, then your efforts go towards something greater than what you can create by yourself. Knowing others are depending on me would inspire me to put forth more effort than I would for only myself. I don't really want to be the person leading the group, I'd rather be a contributor. Provided the leader was competent and ethical, brave and kind, I think this would be an ideal situation.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

I am the exception to the rule you state here.

When you begin to question your beliefs, you end up adopting beliefs that improve your life rather than make you a good cog in the societal machine.

People don't think for themselves because reality is absolutely frightening. For example, to consider the possibility that the U.S. government is run by a cartel of bankers is to blaspheme against the nanny state, which people have come to associate with their sense of security about the world. We're all Uncle Sam's spoiled adult children.

Some more than others hey Manomanman?

(Yes, that's a dig.)

There are all kinds of people, those that act like sheep and are scared to make decisions. Those that make decisions, then blame other people/society for their problems, the victims so to speak. Those that leave decision making up to another people, such as their spouse, their government or a book of some kind.

The trick is that while you can give up the decision making power, you can never really give up the results. Whatever impact those decisions have on your life are yours alone to deal with. There could be a cartel of bankers that secretly control the US money supply, but that doesn't matter when you are overweight because you chose to eat cheeze whiz instead of carrots. There may be other influences on your life, but in the end, you are the one thing that will have the most impact.

As for other people that refuse to take control, all we can do is show them the way. Perhaps thinking is scary for them.

[vMike]

People are sheep, very few want to be different - be it better or worse. That's just how parents, society and mass media teach us.

[lemuria]

"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do."
B.F. Skinner

Many of us have been conditioned to live this way. Behaviourism... What a fascinating subject, total control over a living organism.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I'd love to be a sheep if I could find a good shepherd.

...

Thanks for this fascinating reply!

I think the girl who wanted other people to make decisions for her would have agreed with you, here. She was all about being a part of something. Contributing to a group.

I wonder if this has bearing on the ethics of having employees. Maybe it's already been discussed in that thread, I haven't read it. What I mean is - by employing someone who will be happy in that type of situation, you're contributing to their happiness, and directing their efforts to produce more value than you could on your own. It's an all-around good situation, for everyone involved.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Perhaps thinking is scary for them.

I actually think (lol) this has a lot to do with it, in some cases. I've noticed how some people just have this major aversion to doing any thinking. I think what happens is they get a shame-response tied in to thinking, so it actually becomes painful to think. There are some people using this model to treat learning/reading disabilities.

[Angela]

When you make a judgement or adopt a limiting belief such as "People are sheep," it doesn't mean anything about anyone except for yourself.

If a person is really interested in being free in their thoughts and behavior, it might be worth noticing that he is only looking in a mirror and seeing a reflection of himself. He might ask himself in what area of his life could he be generating free thought or letting go of being led by habitual thought -- whether it's societal or individual? He might generate REAL FREEDOM by giving people the space to be exactly as they are and exactly as they are not, without feeling a need to judge or label or name-call -- simply notice that everyone is exactly where they need to be right now. The REAL FREEDOM is for the thinker more than it is for the others, because when you judge, label, and name-call, you are generating limits for how others can occur for YOU. You block the abundant flow of magnificence that others have to offer you.

If you see sheep-like behavior in yourself or others and notice that it doesn't work for you, that's evaluation, and that is a very useful tool for living a life you love; and when you see people and think, "They ARE sheep," that's a judgement and a limiting belief -- and totally unaligned with truth, love, and power.

A couple of great ways for recognizing when you're being judgmental or being run by a limiting belief: the more upset you are about your thought about another person, or the more important or urgent it is to you that other people change, the more likely it is that it's YOU who would benefit from changing. If you are calm and generating a space of freedom for the other person to be exactly as they are, with no need on your part for them to change, you're probably making an evaluation and simply have a choice to make in the moment, using your evaluation wisely.

Make evaluations, not judgements! They work better.

[ijpeatey]

I'm laughing to myself - when I read the title of the thread I thought you meant it literally rather than metaphorically! Now that would be an interesting case if you had friends who wanted literally to become sheep. I know sex change is possible, but species change???

Anyway, I wonder if this is rather a lack of full maturity rather than a real desire to be sheep. When we're babies we're 100% dependent, so to become a 100% responsible adult requires a complete transformation. Many of the organisations we're part of (family, church, business, government) make it harder by encouraging us to retain some (or a lot) of dependency.

It's a rare individual who can fully raise themselves above that and take complete responsibility for their own lives.

[RRR]

My guess with no objective evidence: This girl was bossed around and had every decision made for her by her parents and teachers. When she tried to make her own decisions her parents would get angry, pouty, or withdrawn. To avoid punishment and threat she learned to differ decision making to others, to make decisions now gives her anxiety to protect her from being attacked. This behavior was adaptive and useful as a child but as an adult it is maladaptive.

[vMike]

It's funny how you treat this girl as extraordinary example, while in fact the vast majority of people are like this.

[Plays With Life]

Really? The vast majority of people that you know are like this?

[Diandra25]

of course they are.

like the girl said,almost all people i know,see that as a way to give life´s meaning.

look:

everywhere you look around,what do you see?you see that for the most part,work and job for example are the focus for them.Why?for various reasonsay the bills,give them power,status or sth they value;they find life+´s meaning there cause...they havent realised yet what we ( who are all here in this forum know)-that this is a big false reality we live in and now,as we know what we dont want ( to live by others judgement or prejudice etc) we can know WHo we are.and what we want.

but for them....what have they really?

when the soul/spirit is not heard,they really just believe that waht is real,is what they see:bodies and empires.

i bless the fact that the capitalism exist-but only at the extend that it made me capable to see that i dont want that for me.

The rest...well...i just can focus on my self first and not be so angry or frustrated with others - if i would do that,at this time i would be dead and burried of how much anger i would have inside me...

EDITED:Angela

your answer resonated a lot with me.it is funny but i feel it as a synch. times ago i would not have understood a word of what you said. Now i completelly trust in that.and mostly,i know. that when im being judgemental torwards another,if i look within me in truth,then the fact is that....what i am really judging and seeing in the other person,are my own fears,my own image.

i passed through that experience little time ago: i was feeling very angry and frustrated about some persons..they were hurting seomeone i really love.i felt the need to show them they were being mean and unfair with the person all their life. i was consumed by all the anger i couldnt really see what was goin on. in fact,it is true that they were and still hurt that person in a lot of ways. but all i can do,is show my love for that person i care a lot. all i can do is simply accept that im not responsible for that.i only can support him and be there for him. i do not have the power or right to judge others.

that a lot of times, i also did that same thing to ones i love too.although in diferent ways...

[Angela]

The vast majority of people that you know are like this?

That's not my experience. I see people as preferring to have MORE choice, more power to be cause in their lives, more sense of control (real or illusionary). It's rare to run across a person who prefers others to make their choices. In fact, I don't think I've EVER known a person who truly prefers that others make their choices. It may look like they do, to the untrained eye, but underneath an apparent wish and encouragement for others to make their choices, there is a yearning to be fully self-expressed, self-actualized, and expansive. When that's suppressed, it sometimes shows up like shyness, submissiveness, resentment, passive-aggression, and illness.
Or sheepishness.

What's interesting is that the more fully self-expressed, self-actualized and expansive I am becoming, the more and more other people I find myself surrounded by who are dynamic and inspiring me with their own self-expression, self-actualization, and expansiveness. The more I be the more I see.

[Plays With Life]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's rare to run across a person who prefers others to make their choices.

That's been my experience, too.