Personal Development for Smart People^TM Forums

bluedragon · 03-25-2009, 08:36 PM

I am concerned about something. I sometimes pass by homeless old people on the street, freezing in the cold and spending their days and nights tucked in one spot on the street. And I'm talking about people who are really helpless and cannot work.
I can't help but ask myself: how the hell can I pass by indifferently, when I have a home, and they don't. I ask myself, why don't I give them something to eat? Why don't I give them something every day, to make sure they don't starve. Why don't I bring them clothes? And then I ask myself: is it right for me to own even 2 apples, as long as there is 1 person starving out there? As long as there is 1 person freezing on the street, is it morally right, or even remotely human, for me to live alone in a 2-room flat? How can I do something like that?
I don't know.
I am wondering if there even is a reason. Maybe something similar to the principle of a state not interfering with the internal affair of other states? Or something like "the prime directive" in Star Trek, where humans swore not to interfere with the "natural" development of other species, even if that meant letting them die from a natural catastrophy, as long as that species didn't actively seek them out and asked for their help? But still, there was always the question: if there is a cosmic plan, are we not part of that plan? Maybe we ARE supposed to help!
So I ask you: why don't you help beggars?

sirkinm · 03-25-2009, 09:25 PM

Some things that come to mind:

Even though we assume these people are suffering, they may not be. In fact, they may feel more free and alive than we do.
Some people are almost pathologically drawn to the streets. In other words, if you set them up with a lifestyle that included a domicile, they would be back on the streets in no time. It's not a judgement against their character --- it's just an observation (I read a great essay on this by respected researchers for a sociology class, and now I have no idea where to find it).
According to the same essay, people who experience temporary homeless generally do so for a short amount of time, and are able to take advantage of public institutions or their own resourcefulness to improve their situation quickly.
Sometimes what we feel is our compassion can really just be an ego boost for ourselves ("I really feel for these poor people...")
When I come to work in the morning, and I take the underground walkway from the train to my building, the homeless dudes occupying it smell SO bad! It's smells like excrement. I wish they would take advantage of the services out there and get themselves cleaned up.

Lupe · 03-25-2009, 10:24 PM

what deep insight!

dreamtime07 · 03-25-2009, 11:21 PM

Actually, for me, its not about morality. And it's all up to you. If you wanna help them, help them; if you don't want to, just leave them alone; maybe somebody will or maybe they will be the one to help themselves up out of that situation.

But, just what sirkinm had said, they might not just be suffering at all.

Or, if you really want to do something, maybe try asking them HOW CAN YOU HELP THEM. maybe it isn't food that they need. Well, this one's making you look like Mother Theresa. Its all up to you!

Sam988 · 03-26-2009, 12:24 AM

I risk to say that most beggars bring it upon themselves. They're just used to that type of living and don't feel like making the huge effort of changing their lifestyles radicaly.

sirkinm · 03-26-2009, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam988

I risk to say that most beggars bring it upon themselves. They're just used to that type of living and don't feel like making the huge effort of changing their lifestyles radicaly.

OK, but that's making a strong judgement on their lifestyle and assuming they want a change. A lot of people don't want to be integrated into this society, even if they can't articulate it as well as someone like this.

When I lived in Japan, I'd sometimes see a Buddhist monk walking the streets with a bowl extended from his hands and his gaze to the ground -- the only difference is that he's part of a religious organization.

MartialDev · 03-26-2009, 02:42 AM

According to The Secret, they became homeless beggars because of their negative outlook. So what is the use in giving them money? Give them a pamphlet on "Attracting Limitless Wealth and Happiness" instead. I'm sure they will thank you for it!

vMike · 03-26-2009, 02:47 AM

Because giving them money is just incouraging them to continue living like that.
Think about that the next time you give a buck to a beggar - you're reinforcing his believe that this the ideal lifestyle for him.

I give money to musicians on the street if I like their music, or organizations that I know will spend it on something useful

Chillax · 03-26-2009, 02:59 AM

If I was in their shoes, I would tell you the same thing.

The world is over populated as it is, the last thing we need is unproductive, useless, leeches.

They do not feel half as bad as you think they do. In some ways, they are more free than us.

Some Random Loser · 03-26-2009, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirkinm

OK, but that's making a strong judgement on their lifestyle and assuming they want a change. A lot of people don't want to be integrated into this society, even if they can't articulate it as well as someone like this.

That's a damn good article, **** man... best link I've ever seen here

Apollia · 03-26-2009, 04:05 AM

I don't think beggars and homeless people are necessarily weak.

The fact that they're willing to suffer a life of poverty and begging rather than turn to a life of crime suggests to me that they might actually have extremely strong morals, and I really admire that.

I don't consider them unproductive and useless. Their strong morals inspire me and increase my belief that there's hope for humanity.

And, any "leeching" they do is of the most harmless and forgivable kind, in my opinion - the acceptance of only voluntarily-offered help.

The reason I don't yet help beggars and homeless people as much as I'd like to is because I'm still pretty low on money/etc. myself. But hopefully that will change.

Best wishes,
Apollia

bluedragon · 03-26-2009, 08:34 AM

I believe we are all part of the same consciousness, so even if they chose to live like that, I can choose to help them get out of it, and it's all the same thing.
Or if we're not part of the same consciousness, then we ARE the same consciousness, like in Steve's model of Subjective Reality. And in this case, too, I can help them, as this would just mean helping myself. If I don't help them, it would be like not washing a part of my body, or not letting it to rot.
That is why I am interested in teaching people about personal development anyway. To interfere with their lives, not to leave them alone.
But the truth is I actually don't want to help the homeless, and this is what concerns me. I don't know if living an abundant life is human, as long as others are not living it.

lisamelinda · 03-26-2009, 09:12 AM

I agree that it can be a state of learned helplessness, but consider for instance a country like South Africa. A lot of people have grown up in poverty, and haven't received any education whatsoever. I can imagine it must be quite difficult to grasp how they can help themselves. all they can see is what is available to them (according to their perception, sure), and that's nothing. And people treat them badly. I don't make judgements about their way of living. Perhaps some people consciously choose that way of life, but i imagine that is extremely rare. Consider how kindness and compassion can be powerful motivators to positivity, and could redirect someone's belief system so they could glimpse that the world isn't necessarily a cruel, harsh nightmare of existence.

ssandra · 03-26-2009, 12:02 PM

My "rule" is that if I have single money in my pockets thats what I give. If I have nothing they don´t get anything. Only for street musicians I will get out my wallet.

I don´t have a lot of money, but I have enough not to miss 2 euros a week for example. I don´t mind giving it to people who seem in need of it.

For example, there are some beggars that are clearly drug addicts or mentally not completely ok. I don´t mind giving to them. Hopefully they will go to a shelter with the money and find someone who can help them.

The problem that I have is with the women and men who just sit in the street and have a child with them!!!!

There is enough support here in Belgium for that not to be needed, and I cannot help them in any way. If it was not profitable for them, they would not do this, they would find another way that would not harm their child (who should be in school, or playing with friends!).

In Mexico however, I would always give if I have it. I know the situation is different there and they cannot rely on the state to help them.

lisamelinda · 03-26-2009, 12:15 PM

agreed, i'm sure it varies dramatically from country to country.

timothydrake · 03-26-2009, 01:49 PM

I for one will never ever beg even if I were in that position. I know that in this world there is always another way. By begging I mean standing in the streets with a sign saying "Please help- God bless you." I see that as a "give up" sign. I don't help quitters.

Worst of all I experienced an episode with them that I will never forget. I was driving with my girlfriend after we got a few burgers at the drive thru. We stopped at a red light and next to us was a beggar with a sign. She said "give him a burger." I said "why." "Because it's the right thing to do." Wanting to get laid that night I said "ok." I rolled my window down and proceeded to hand him a burger. He smiled, took the burger and unwrapped it. Then the light turned green, we rolled out and a burger splats on my window "I don't need food you morons I need money!" Me and my girl was like DubbyaTeeEff! We swore never to help those people again.

jeff3 · 03-26-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartialDev

According to The Secret, they became homeless beggars because of their negative outlook. So what is the use in giving them money? Give them a pamphlet on "Attracting Limitless Wealth and Happiness" instead. I'm sure they will thank you for it!

I agree, their mental world creates their physical world, so, giving them things will have no lasting impact unless their consciousness is raised.

Froztwolf · 03-28-2009, 09:33 AM

It's interesting how most replies here are about why the person is panhandling rather than why they don't give money. It's a very different line of reasoning.

To be completely cold and cynical I'm going to quote game theory.

Let's set up a scenario where 10 people are waiting for the bus and a beggar comes by panhandling for food. The situation for each of these 10 people is thus: If someone gives him money for a meal, they feel a little bit better. (+2 points) If you yourself give him money for food you still feel a little bit better but you lost some of your money and the beggar is likely to single you out next time (-2 points). If nobody gives him money he may starve and everyone will feel horrible about themselves (-10 points)

So it's obviously in your favor that someone else gives him money.
In small groups of people (small towns, closed communities) you are more likely to give him money because the odds of someone else doing it are quite low. In a big city thousands of people might walk past the beggar every day so the odds of someone giving him money are high enough that you can walk right past him with comfort.

bluedragon · 03-28-2009, 01:06 PM

OK, let me ask you something else: why don't you help people who need money for an operation to save their life, and send mass messages on yahoo messenger asking all the students in their university to help them, for example? Because "they brought it upon themselves" ? This would annihilate the value of being kind to someone... The whole notion of compassion. Why write a blog about personal development? Those who still have things to learn, have brought their ignorance upon themselves. Why write about principles and values? Those who don't have them, have brought this state upon themselves... I don't agree with this kind of reasoning.

schola · 03-28-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirkinm

OK, but that's making a strong judgement on their lifestyle and assuming they want a change. A lot of people don't want to be integrated into this society, even if they can't articulate it as well as someone like this.

Good article. An excellent alternative viewpoint as the author goes against most of the common wisdom on this forum.

Andrew Brunelle · 03-28-2009, 03:56 PM

I think people who beg have every right to beg and people who don't give them money have every right not to give them money. Personally, I have given to beggars more than once, but a couple of times they gave me this wild story to get money and the first time I gave it, but the second time, the same beggar with the same story approached me about a year later and I told him no because I knew he was lying. If you're going to beg, at least be honest about it. I have more respect for someone like that than a beggar that has some wild story to gain more sympathy. There was a beggar once I saw a photo of that had a sign that said, "I need money for beer and hooker. Hey, at least I'm not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ting you." I bet he got more money than someone who faked being handicapped or homeless just for some extra money. Beggars could be a catlyst for your compassion center. Maybe you shouldn't assume that every beggar is hooked on drugs or liquor and give once in awhile because every human being deserves the right to food, shelter, and compassion.

Dimond · 03-28-2009, 04:46 PM

As a female, safety is the main reason why I wouldn't help someone homeless or otherwise in many cases. I choose to help other people in other situations or meeting them through other means. I think it would just depend on where you live and how comfortable you feel in the situation at the time.

I once volunteered on Christmas to give out blankets and other necessities and actually found that many were in really great spirits. They seemed way happier than I was at the time.

Xanafax · 03-28-2009, 05:12 PM

I find there aren't many homeless people in my town but in the ones I come across they are usually wasters.

I don't pity them, and I take great delight in owning what I do, I find that the logical conclusion of the OP's argument is that to be moral we should give away everything we earn until everyone has as much as we do.

bluedragon · 03-28-2009, 05:43 PM

No, the OP is not suggesting anything, he was merely saying that HE feels frustrated because he doesn't think it's right for him to live such a happy life when others starve to death in the cold on the street. I don't think anyone else should do anything. Well, except maybe for understanding.

Xanafax · 03-28-2009, 05:47 PM

I assumed because the OP posted his thoughts and then asked a very specific question he was expecting a personal answer.

Andrew Gubb · 03-28-2009, 05:56 PM

I do

I usually give them food if I have some, and I'm quite free with money.

I think the main problem is that homeless people are kind of like an "untouchable" caste. People don't want to be associated with them or even connect with them. They don't look them in the eyes (I sat with a beggar on the street once for about an hour to keep her company and pretended to be one. About 1 person in 100 even looked at us). It's this sort of thing which lets there be homeless people in the world.

Because of this, I think the best thing to do is to connect and purposely disregard the status quo. Show them that they are worthy human beings like anyone.

Xanafax · 03-28-2009, 06:40 PM

Worthy of what?

Surely their predicament is a direct result of their inability to self-preserve in what out society considers a basic way? Certainly in the Uk the more than generous benefits system supports everyone and therefore I can see it only as a massive failure on the part of the homeless person and as such cannot find it within myself to feel their plight when it is so blatantly self-inflicted.

Andrew Gubb · 03-28-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanafax

Worthy of what?

Just worthy

People don't need to be deserving of love. You just love.

yossarian · 03-28-2009, 06:52 PM

heres the thing: we're all poor due to politics.

Looking at the incredibly abundant resources on the earth, what makes people poor?

It's politics. The Federal Reserve system in particular.

If we abolished the federal reserve and seized back land holdings from corporations there would be no more homeless people because society could afford to put them all up in apartments with showers and free food indefinitely. Why not?

If you're a millionaire, it causes you no pain at all to pay the rent and food bills of some homeless guy. He'll still be a drug addict, he'll still be lazy and screwed up and unemployed, but at least he won't be out on the street smelling like poop.

The Earth as a whole is rich enough so that no one needs to starve or be without shelter. The ONLY reason people starve is because the mass of men do not take responsibility for the leaders they "elect". Most people don't even know who the rulers are, and ignorance is de facto support.

So the reason we all need to feel guilty about homeless people on the street is because we put them there by failing to hold our rulers accountable.

Every human has joint responsibility, but the major change is not going to be made by giving coins, it is going to be made by changing the government and re-seizing the wealth of the Banksters whose power base is the Federal Reserve System.

Xanafax · 03-28-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote: