Why don't you help beggars and homeless people?

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by Xanafax

No. We are poor because we do not create value.

Are you positively sure that the value of someone's work is directly proportional with the money he earns? Then selling something useless or being a writer for a scandal publication is more valuable than being a volunteer for GreenPeace (or planting trees or whatever). And selling drugs is more valuable than selling fruit, cause it makes more money.

What you advocate in your post is a blame culture, blame the leaders for our poverty...

I think he advocates exactly the opposite. He suggests we should take ACTION, to take responsibility for the way we elect our leaders and we interact with them. In our kind of society, leaders make the decisions. It's the way we decided it's supposed to be. We can only influence their decisions by being politically active. But whatever decisions leaders make, it's ultimately their choice and their responsibility.

You ultimately advocate a utilitarian or socialist society that glorifies ineptitude and punishes successful production.

Again, I wouldn't equate success with money earned. Who is to say that someone who goes broke didn't make a meaningful contribution to society? Maybe that is exactly the reason why he ended up broke. Maybe he gave his house to his child, and his child left him on the streets. Maybe his child did a crime, and the only way to help his child was to sell the house. Or maybe a friend of his was ill, and he sold the house to pay for his operation.

PLUS: someone who does a job he hates, and he thinks it's detrimental to other people's lives... is he better than a beggar?
Examples of jobs I consider worse than no job, in our society: a telemarketer. a broker who sells stock that is going to fall. a prosecutor who happens (in a specific lawsuit), to accuse an innocent man and sentence him to jail or death. the convict's executioner, and the guy who reads him the bible. someone who uses steroids on animals in a factory. someone who makes weapons. someone who kicks people out of their homes. someone who pretends to be a psychic (and is actually not one). a spammer. a Chiwawa dog hair stylist. a politician who happens to be among the weakest or most deceiving among all others. the one who created the "snooze" function on cell phones. the one who created a software that does exactly the same thing as another software that is free and more effective. someone who created an advertising campaign that ended up having no effect. someone who sold a product that the buyer ended up finding useless. You get the drill.

[Plato]

I already do charity... I can't do any more.

This is an inconvenient time, maybe later.

I'm living on benefits. Somebody should be helping me out.

It's the government's problem, not mine.

Beggars aren't an issue close to my heart. I care more about people with cancer because my mum died of it.

What about the animals? Who's looking out for them?

Uh, do you have any more information on it, I need to think about it.

No thank you.

[Some Random Loser]

Xanafax LoL you fail to mention that those who control the money systems are creating value only for themselves, and are using violent force to maintain their relative wealth levels. You also fail to mention that the corporate/government command structure is based on the use of force as well. Hardly what one could call true free enterprise. Rand's vision has never actually been realized, for even an instant. There never was and never will be true laissez faire capitalism. As long as those with a position of advantage rely on manipulation and force, there never will be. The power-hoarding conglamorates use force and deception to maintain their monetary wealth. The governments are controlled by financial interests. What world are you living in Xanafax?

[Xanafax]

The world I live in, Some Random Loser, is not the world of someone who is afraid to make money, who is not afraid to come out on top and who is not afraid to say, unashamedly, without fear or doubt that wealth, in all forms, is the ultimate purpose of my life.

[Some Random Loser]

There are 2 kinds of wealth acquisition, though. Vampiric wealth acquisition, and win/win wealth acquisition. Raping the world around us, or working with the world around us. Now, aside from the realities and implementations of this, which would you rather do, Xan?

[Some Random Loser]

I realize it was a misnomer to say "creating value only for themselves." What I should have said, is "Using cunning strategies to take value created by others, and hoard that value."

[yossarian]

If you don't think that the federal reserve system is a parasite that exists entirely to leech value from society, you are misinformed.

Right now we don't live in a democracy, we live in a feudal dictatorship. Our King is a faceless banker. We The People, however, have all the power, and We The People put him in power then forgot that we did it.

It's totally deluded to think we live in anything even remotely near a free market. I'm a libertarian who believes in the value of the free market - and THAT is why I'm opposed to the status quo. Because we DON'T have a free market.

We would all be relative millionaires if it wasn't for the federal reserve system. This is a fact that would take me too long to prove.. but I recommend this documentary The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America

Any good free marketer or libertarian who understands currency and capital and wealth, after watching that video, will understand that the scarcity we feel today is entirely artificial.

Ask yourself this: How is it possible that with exponentially increasing technology, the average income has decreased and the hours worked increased? What sense does that make? Technology should make the average person richer, not poorer.

Question: Why hasn't technology made us all richer to the point where even lazy drug addicts can afford apartments?

Answer: Because of the Federal Reserve System that is specifically designed to siphon off all the wealth.

As long as we have private bankers controlling our money supply at interest there will ALWAYS be homeless people. Homeless people are a direct consequence of the money system.

When we give coins to a homeless person we are treating the symptom. Instead, we should attack the disease - the lent-at-interest privately governed fiat money supply.

[Some Random Loser]

Money Masters is one of my favorite documentaries ever

[Lauxa]

I'm really torn because I love the idea of people being able to produce value and acquire wealth, but I still think it's a disgrace that there are humans without basic shelter. Especially when I can look around and see the contrast of warehouses and office buildings sitting unused and humans sleeping on the streets. It seems out of balance.

I can't understand why all the property in the entire earth simply must be segmented out such that some individuals own whole states and others not even a 10'x10' plot where they could set out a tent. Why should people be forced to trade labor for the right to use the land and resources of the earth? Only because others before them have laid claim to these resources and are only willing to relinquish their claims to a small portion of their resources in trade for labor.

Of course there is another way, which is to violently take what you desire. The current claimants have a claim only because they are using violence to enforce that claim against others. Usually that violence is enforced by a 3rd party agency such as The Government and so most people are able to pretend that they are not violently defending their hoard against others. But they are, and what gives them the moral high ground to do so?

Sometimes I help beggars and the homeless on the streets, sometimes not. There are panhandlers at every corner in my city, and I often suspect they get quite good pay from sitting out with a cardboard sign. Sometimes I'll see a young woman out there who is so unhappy and ashamed and won't make eye contact with anyone. My heart will go out to her, but she can't see what is being offered. I am more annoyed by the people who are begging for charities than individuals asking for help and rarely give to them. Usually if I've got anything special going on that day I'll give out a couple of dollars as a "good luck charm". I've got some charities that I support as well, but I'm not yet at the level of generosity I'd like to be at.

[Plato]

Tonight I exchanged 50p for a joke from a beggar.

It was "What's the difference between 69 and a mugger? With 69 you see the c unt coming"

Most disappointing but I considered the possibility of him stabbing me if I turned him down at this point. and duly paid him.

[Some Random Loser]

ROFL thats great

[Inthon]

If people want to stop being homeless, they need to have the courage to ask for help.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I can't understand why all the property in the entire earth simply must be segmented out such that some individuals own whole states and others not even a 10'x10' plot where they could set out a tent. Why should people be forced to trade labor for the right to use the land and resources of the earth? Only because others before them have laid claim to these resources and are only willing to relinquish their claims to a small portion of their resources in trade for labor.

Of course there is another way, which is to violently take what you desire. The current claimants have a claim only because they are using violence to enforce that claim against others. Usually that violence is enforced by a 3rd party agency such as The Government and so most people are able to pretend that they are not violently defending their hoard against others. But they are, and what gives them the moral high ground to do so?

That is so true! But I wonder what can be done about it, if anything can be done...

The world I live in, Some Random Loser, is not the world of someone who is afraid to make money, who is not afraid to come out on top and who is not afraid to say, unashamedly, without fear or doubt that wealth, in all forms, is the ultimate purpose of my life.

Well then... at least now I understand where you come from.
I'm not afraid to make money either. But I am afraid to keep it all to myself. If I had enough, I would do all kinds of things to help others. For me, wealth is not at all a purpose, but a means.

[Some Random Loser]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

For me, wealth is not at all a purpose, but a means.

Yea I'm totaly with you on that. You know sometimes all I wanna do is have a dam house, a nice car, and hang out with my friends playing LAN parties on our super power gaming rigs all day, and smoking weed and eating junkfood, and having girls with us and ****ing them from time to time. If I can have all that and come out at the end of the day with zero dollars, THAT WOULD BE SWEET

[bluedragon]

Hold on... but those things are wealth, too. It's not about the difference between currency and material possessions. It's about the difference between material wealth and non-material things that are worth living for, such as success, happiness, excitement, contribution, achievement, challenge, satisfaction, compassion ; relationships, creativity, love... All of which are not intrinsically tied to money - they can be obtained by the means of money and possession, and they are certainly not directly proportional to the money spent - more money may help - but that doesn't mean that the people who are spending the most money are always happier, are contributing the most to general well-being (or at all) etc.

[Some Random Loser]

The dif is I'm not thinking of wealth when I think of that stuff, but yea you're 100% correct

[Cyllya]

Fortunately for my emotional well-being, there aren't too many homeless people on the streets where I live. Or at least not visible ones. But what a lot of people around here need most is water, as it can get up to 120 degrees F in the summer.

I usually give some money to people desperate enough to ask me for it, homeless or otherwise, assuming I have reasonable units of currency with me.

Some reasons I'm not more helpful include:
--I think it's perfectly okay to keep what you earn for yourself, and that includes earning the ability to use your time how you please. My time, which is heavily related to money, is terribly precious to me.
--Sometimes I see people with cardboard signs on the side of the road, usually at a freeway off-ramp. I can't even read the sign, but assuming they want money, where am I supposed to park to get out to hand it to them?
--The more money you have, the easier it is to make money. Consider saving up and then donating the interest earned to various causes.

(For the record, remember that homeless people usually do need money more than food for perfectly legitimate not-drug-related reasons. They often get food from shelters or food stamps, but they may need money for diapers, medicine, hygiene items, tampons, etc.)

[Manomanman]

To the OP,

There are 1000's of people starving to death and leaving this mortal coil right now, around the world. Why? Because they exist in populations that have no political rights. There is nothing that you can do as an individual right now to save them. Sure, you can save a few if you donate all your money, but that's STO without STS.

If it bothers you, find a way to make a living helping these people. The living I make should indirectly help them.