Equality for Men and Women

[Jill]

I think of David Deida's "The way of a superior man" as a guideline to how men should live. In it, it stresses the importance for men to find their deepest purpose so that they may give their fullest gifts to the world. A man with purpose (alternatively you may think of someone who has connected with his higher Self) will do whatever it takes to fulfill his destiny, and that makes a man great, whatever his purpose may be.

The female counterpart, "Dear Lover", stresses that for females, their greatest offering to the world is to radiate and spread love to their lovers and to the rest of the world.

Why can't the women do what the men are supposed to do?


[Split off from this thread: What makes a Great person?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Mmmhmmm you go Girl Firend.

(No offence intended)

Yeah actually i have to agree, women are equal to men in mind, Physically they are different but lets not get into debate about that.

[Jill]

I understand when people use the word "men" to mean all people in general. But it was surprising for me to see two separate statements regarding men and women. Certainly strange to see that in this day and age!

[tc33]

Maybe the "women should be barefoot and pregnant at home" movement is making a comeback? Oh kids these days and their crazy retro fads!

[Jill]

Nothing wrong with that if that's what you (the woman) wants. (That's what I wanted and had.) The important thing is that all women and men have the ability to choose what they want to be and what they want out of life.

[stephencp]

"I understand when people use the word "men" to mean all people in general. But it was surprising for me to see two separate statements regarding men and women. Certainly strange to see that in this day and age! "

Why? It is unfortunately that political correctness has made it so. Men and women are different. From a Jungian/Myers-Briggs perspective, 2/3 of men are "thinkers" and 2/3 of women are "feelers", hence a basis for a stereotypical definition of women as being "lovers" and the basis for the Mars/Venus stuff.

Stephen
www.**********************

[Michael Chui]

A stereotype is an overgeneralization by definition. Meaning that, while it has a kernel of truth, it's ultimately incorrect because it generalizes too broadly.

Men and women are different, but I don't think they're as different as they're being made to be. When you say 2/3rds of X are Y, is this inherent or learned?

Also, this is an off-topic discussion. It should be branched to another thread.

[Jill]

Also, this is an off-topic discussion. It should be branched to another thread.

Good point, I've split them.

Originally Posted by stephencp

Why? It is unfortunately that political correctness has made it so. Men and women are different. From a Jungian/Myers-Briggs perspective, 2/3 of men are "thinkers" and 2/3 of women are "feelers", hence a basis for a stereotypical definition of women as being "lovers" and the basis for the Mars/Venus stuff.

Of course men and women are different. No doubt about it.

My comments have nothing to do with political correctness.

What I didn't understand was why this would be said ONLY about men:

the importance for men to find their deepest purpose so that they may give their fullest gifts to the world. A man with purpose (alternatively you may think of someone who has connected with his higher Self) will do whatever it takes to fulfill his destiny, and that makes a man great, whatever his purpose may be.

I believe that is also true for women. Why would it be a woman's purpose to simply spread love? Who says that is her specific destiny?

Maybe for some women. But maybe for some men.

Purposes and destiny don't know gender as far as I know.

[Radical]

Because women secretly want that. They secretly desire to be housewives and to take care of their husbands. Even if they choose to have a career and be independent, they secretly desire for a man to tell them what to do. I believe women like playing the supportive role, and they want the men to be leaders.

Women fought for equality, but they don't really want equality. They say they do, but what they mean is that they want the same opportunities as men, however they don't want the responsibility and still want men to do everything. Just my humble opinion.

[The Probabilist]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

When you say 2/3rds of X are Y, is this inherent or learned?

The MBTI is a type evaluator. Typology refers to characteristics and behaviour that is strongly rooted in innate, born orientation, which causes relatively stable, enduring and predictable patterns. It is the sum total of ways a person behaves and is expected to behave. (Not set in stone though.)

A trait evaluator is more suspect to upbringing.

[maryelyn]

Originally Posted by Radical

Because women secretly want that. They secretly desire to be housewives and to take care of their husbands. Even if they choose to have a career and be independent, they secretly desire for a man to tell them what to do. I believe women like playing the supportive role, and they want the men to be leaders.

Women fought for equality, but they don't really want equality. They say they do, but what they mean is that they want the same opportunities as men, however they don't want the responsibility and still want men to do everything. Just my humble opinion.

heh, heh, heh....hahahahaha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

yeah, right. what does that make me, bucko? a female 'male wannabe'?
i don't think so...i have three brothers and i saw them come to grief too many times on that bicycle bar to ever want to have my 'stuff' hangin' out there all vulnerable and sh!t...

nah...i'm okay with being female, but don't tell me what i 'secretly' want. i know what i want and i'm pretty sure that's not it!

not that it doesn't have a place in romance...but don't think that 'cuz you're man enough to open a door for me, that that makes you more 'responsible' than me. over all, women have usually had to take on the responsibility that a lot of men were more than willing to abdicate.

no. i think that women would just be happy if men took on their fair share.
instead of having the attitude of the 'i'm the boss or i'm outa here' attitude.

but i'm not bitter...

[Radical]

Originally Posted by maryelyn

heh, heh, heh....hahahahaha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

yeah, right. what does that make me, bucko? a female 'male wannabe'?
i don't think so...i have three brothers and i saw them come to grief too many times on that bicycle bar to ever want to have my 'stuff' hangin' out there all vulnerable and sh!t...

nah...i'm okay with being female, but don't tell me what i 'secretly' want. i know what i want and i'm pretty sure that's not it!

not that it doesn't have a place in romance...but don't think that 'cuz you're man enough to open a door for me, that that makes you more 'responsible' than me. over all, women have usually had to take on the responsibility that a lot of men were more than willing to abdicate.

no. i think that women would just be happy if men took on their fair share.
instead of having the attitude of the 'i'm the boss or i'm outa here' attitude.

but i'm not bitter...

Typical woman response.

They get so defensive when someone tells them of their true nature, even if there is a great deal of empirical evidence.

My opinion is women 'secretly' know their true nature, but are so conditioned with political correctness and feminism, that they're incapable of admitting what they really want.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Radical

[women] secretly desire for a man to tell them what to do.

I've noticed this is mostly true for men, too. Hey, go make me a sandwich, boy; my country is bigger than yours.

Originally Posted by Radical

My opinion is women 'secretly' know their true nature

To be strictly Jungian, their male unconscious is telling them this "true nature", and their male unconscious is shaped by their perception of male regard. Am I still being politically correct?

Originally Posted by Radical

they don't really want equality

I have met maybe 10-20 people in this world who have shown me the understand what the word "equality" means.

[dcaldwell]

For two decades, at least, the social focus has been honed on what women want, how much they can achieve comparative to men, how women's skills can be improved, how they can break away from the male sphere of influence. The phrase "be a man" is tossed around as verbal ammunition, yet no one can define exactly what that means. There is nothing left to hunt except the Friday paycheck, nothing to protect against except creditors, and no initiation into adulthood. That's a gradually depressing state few want to live, yet many men have been relegated to exactly that role.

Where the cultural role of females has greatly evolved, the equal evolution of male purpose has stunted and we experience the social imbalance everywhere. Maryelyn, your comment of man's "I'm the boss, or I'm outta here" is a perfect reactionary example of feeling frustrated (not threatened), yet unable to express the core intent of their feelings because no one taught them how (or even that it's perfectly "male") to express it. I wholeheartedly support any attempt to "guide" young men along a path of self-discovery and purpose, in a way that doesn't hinder their female counterpart's "progress", yet helps him feel wanting and appreciated for their unique contributions.

So that leads us back to the original question, "why can't women do what men are supposed to do?" Because women aren't men. Women have a unique gender role, just like men, that can only enhance their purpose whatever that may be. Any man who's lived with a women (other than their mother) for any length of time can attest to the fact women are naturally adept with empathy and compassion, and when they feel loved, supported and secure they make life for others quite joyful. I can't imagine how this could be discounted. This doesn't mean that women shouldn't be denied opportunities because their only purpose is to "love others". That's an ignorance that will only perpetuate this gender debate instead of working beyond it.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Radical

Just my humble opinion.

ROFL

Yeah, right.

[ragtag]

Radical, are you trolling or actually serious?

Saying that women "secretly desire to be housewives and to take care of their husbands" is a huge generalization and frankly quite offensive.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by dcaldwell

So that leads us back to the original question, "why can't women do what men are supposed to do?"

No, that's not the original question.

I think most people would agree that there are differences between genders and men and women can't always do the same things because of it.

But we're not talking about your avg. every day stuff here. We're talking about stuff that transends who takes out the garbage and mows the lawn. Or who breastfeeds the babies and changes the diapers. (Not that either sex can't do those...'cept the breast part of course! )

We're talking about the fact that supposedly men have some deeper purpose, but women are just here to spread love.

I don't think so.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Radical

Because women secretly want that. They secretly desire to be housewives and to take care of their husbands. Even if they choose to have a career and be independent, they secretly desire for a man to tell them what to do. I believe women like playing the supportive role, and they want the men to be leaders.

Women fought for equality, but they don't really want equality. They say they do, but what they mean is that they want the same opportunities as men, however they don't want the responsibility and still want men to do everything. Just my humble opinion.

And of course you would know what women want despite the fact that you're a man. Gotta love that! Men have defined what women should want for thousands of years, congratulations on continuing that tradition. Women can actually do most things that men can do. In reality it's men who can't do some things that women can, like have children. Other than that the only major difference is physical makeup. Men have the potential to build a lot of upper body muscle strength which allows them to carry heavy things and do well in a fist fight. Other than that, our brains are capable of exactly the same things which is what counts these days.

And by the way, I bet if women were the leaders of the world's nations we'd be living in a much more peaceful world. It's actually shameful that the United States has never had a female president so far. There are many other countries who have, and if Hillary Clinton runs for president in the next election I'll vote for her just because she's a woman. This country is supposed to be the leader in liberty, equality and progress, and this will be an important major step in that direction.

[dcaldwell]

Originally Posted by Jill

No, that's not the original question.

I think most people would agree that there are differences between genders and men and women can't always do the same things because of it.

But we're not talking about your avg. every day stuff here. We're talking about stuff that transends who takes out the garbage and mows the lawn. Or who breastfeeds the babies and changes the diapers. (Not that either sex can't do those...'cept the breast part of course! )

We're talking about the fact that supposedly men have some deeper purpose, but women are just here to spread love.

I don't think so.

The original question is the topic of this thread, which sources a comment in a previous thread. Let's not split hairs here.

If you read what I said carefully, I was hardly talking about day-by-day activities.

If you want to get technical about it, men can indeed breastfeed. There are many documented cases, though they often have to supplement

As for your last remark, I agreed with you the first time around.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ragtag

Radical, are you trolling or actually serious?

Saying that women "secretly desire to be housewives and to take care of their husbands" is a huge generalization and frankly quite offensive.

He's parroting PUA doctrine carried to extremes. Strict PUA doctrine would say that women just want to have sex. Just like men. Oh, wait... :P

[Lychee]

Radical, you are completely off the mark. Aside from that, you assert that women get defensive when someone tells them of their "true nature" when you yourself stated that it was your "humble" opinion. Seeing us as "they" only propagates your belief you currently hold about women. If you believe that women are socially conditioned, on the flip side you must agree that men are as well. No gender is left out of the equation as we are living in the same world with the same laws.

Women and men differ both physically and psychologically. dcaldwell brought up some good points.

Women are more loving and nurturing. Men are more practical and reasonable. This is why we NEED each other. A world full of women or men alone would fail. We complement each other. A man loves the beauty of a woman, the woman loves the strength of a man. Women want to feel secure and loved, men want to feel strong and appreciated. These are generalizations of course and differ from relationship to relationship, but you get the basic idea.

[Michael Chui]

I think it's interesting that "Terrorism and Islam" is listed as a "similar thread" at the bottom...

I need to ask: are we discussing "equality of gender" (degenderization), or are we discussing "men are not better than women" (feminism)? Because most people appear to be taking a "separate but equal" stance.

I would also ask people to distinguish culture from biology: women have a number of clear externally visible markers, a smaller number of unclear external markers, minor externally invisible markers (ovaries are the only one I can think of offhand), and some notable differences in brain structure (in the limbic system, I'm told, and in storage structures (higher dispersal)).

None of these are cultural markers.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Lychee

A man loves the beauty of a woman, the woman loves the strength of a man. Women want to feel secure and loved, men want to feel strong and appreciated.

Perhaps this generalization is why most women seem obsessed with their appearance and why a lot of men feel inadequately macho?

[Steve MacLellan]

But it was surprising for me to see two separate statements regarding men and women. Certainly strange to see that in this day and age!

I didn't find anything strange about it.

A man with purpose (alternatively you may think of someone who has connected with his higher Self) will do whatever it takes to fulfill his destiny, and that makes a man great, whatever his purpose may be.

The female counterpart, "Dear Lover", stresses that for females, their greatest offering to the world is to radiate and spread love to their lovers and to the rest of the world.

Yep. I was working lots of hours (some for the man, other hours spent building a business) which would enable us to achieve what we both wanted. Meanwhile, she was out spreading her love.

Now that we are divorced, and I run my own little business... to whom am I a great man?

This thread borders on psycho-babble, in my humble opinion, although I did find it entertaining.

Regards,
Steve MacLellan

[Hsiang-Lin]

I believe when men or women obtain enlightenment, they can transcend gender differences and accomplish just about anything.

That is my goal. I hope to one day view men as no different than women and vice versa. I hope to find a partner who sees this way as well. I'm just tired of game playing not only from others, but from myself. I try hard to not interact with people based on their gender. If anything, I focus most on a spiritual connection or getting to know what kind of personality they are. It is harder with hotter women though But something I do to keep myself in check in those situations is to just put think of myself as a goof and totally unmacho. For some reason, this makes me relax around them and I can just chill.

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Men and women are different, but I don't think they're as different as they're being made to be. When you say 2/3rds of X are Y, is this inherent or learned?

People are what they are. The question whether it is inherent or whether it is learned doesn't really matter for our discussion.

Originally Posted by Radical

They get so defensive when someone tells them of their true nature, even if there is a great deal of empirical evidence.

What do you mean with "true nature"?

Originally Posted by Baltar

And of course you would know what women want despite the fact that you're a man.

If you try to make an objective statement about the topic it should be irrelevant whether you are a woman or a men.
That the secret of objectivity.

There are many other countries who have, and if Hillary Clinton runs for president in the next election I'll vote for her just because she's a woman. This country is supposed to be the leader in liberty, equality and progress, and this will be an important major step in that direction.

You want to archieve that men and woman are treated they same by making important decisions based on gender?
Sounds inconsistent to me.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Brutha

If you try to make an objective statement about the topic it should be irrelevant whether you are a woman or a men.
That the secret of objectivity.

If you're a man you can never understand what it's like to be a woman and vice versa. This has nothing to do with being objective. The only thing we can say about the opposite sex is what we have learned through observation and what they've told us.

Originally Posted by Brutha

You want to archieve that men and woman are treated they same by making important decisions based on gender?
Sounds inconsistent to me.

Sometimes it's necessary to do this in order to create balance that never existed before. Read about affirmative action.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Baltar

If you're a man you can never understand what it's like to be a woman and vice versa.

Prove it.

Originally Posted by Brutha

The question whether it is inherent or whether it is learned doesn't really matter for our discussion.

Actually, the reason I pointed it out was that there is a fairly strong argument that gender is culturally implanted: women act feminine because they've been taught to act feminine through upbringing. Thus, femininity is not an inherent trait of women and it is possible for a woman to be brought up without it.

Originally Posted by Baltar

Sometimes it's necessary to do this in order to create balance that never existed before. Read about affirmative action.

Affirmative action is a crutch to counterbalance against prejudiced employers and admissions officers. It is, in truth, weak and stupid: the appropriate action is to find a way to fix the employers and admissions officers, not force them to take people they don't like.

[Milo Riano]

If you look closer you'll find that many times women get things because they are women and there are times that men get things because they are men. Whatever books and materials say both gender have advantages and disadvantages.

Example: Sometimes I cannot understand why ads would indicate business owners would prefer females for cashier jobs? I look around our neighborhood and groceries, stores, snack bars and they have females as their finance trustee. Men are confined as security guards and lifters. Does that mean that they are more trustworthy than men?

Anyways, you can go a long long list of things that both men and women can and cannot work for their favor.

[Holistic Star]

Milo, I'm not sure where you live but I'm guessing it isn't the UK.

In the UK it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sex, race, sexuality, disability and age. The one requirement is 'can the person do the job?' or even, 'with the right training can the person do the job?'.
The reason for this is that your biology doesn't determine your intelligence, apptitude or personality or ability to do most jobs.

For all of the posters above who think that your biology should determine your destiny, please think again. Statements saying that men should alwasys do A and women should always do B because a third of men are thinkers and a third of women are feelers are discriminatory:
a) because those are only their prefered modes, it doesn't mean the person can't think / feel if they need to.
b) saying ALL men/women have to do X or be Y because two thirds of them prefer it, discriminates against a hell of a lot of people. The remaining one third make up a billion people per gender. That's a lot of people being squeezed into the wrong box.


PS - I wouldn't vote for someone just because they were female. I'd vote for them based on their policies.