How Darkwork has helped the world

[pyrogen]

I'm just throwing this out there for discussion. Thoughts, anyone?

[Sam988]

People who want to help themselves first, if successful, more often than not end up helping the world too.


Care to be more specific in your question?

[Plato]

Giving the little people something to whine about.

[Andrew Gubb]

Evil has never helped anyone.

If "darkworking" means serving the self, then of course helping yourself helps the world. Humans are made to work together.

If darkworking means evil, which is to hate life, and carries with it a desire to pervert the true nature of all things and leave nothing untouched, then no, no good ever came of it, almost by definition.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

If darkworking means evil, which is to hate life, and carries with it a desire to pervert the true nature of all things and leave nothing untouched, then no, no good ever came of it, almost by definition.

Where did you read this?


Steve has in no way ever mentioned or implied this when he wrote about darkworkers.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Where did you read this?


Steve has in no way ever mentioned or implied this when he wrote about darkworkers.

I think Steve's writings were a bit vague. We have too many arguments here because he didn't define properly what he meant by "darkwork".

At some points in his writings he talked about darkworkers using "fear energy".

Anyone who polarizes to this energy ends up "evil" as I have described it.

If you want to serve yourself, you should be good. If you want to serve evil, you should be evil.

[supertom]

how can you know if someone is a darkworker, e.g rockefellar - gave away more than half his money that helpped a lot of people, in the end it was prob for his image.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I think Steve's writings were a bit vague. We have too many arguments here because he didn't define properly what he meant by "darkwork".

At some points in his writings he talked about darkworkers using "fear energy".

Anyone who polarizes to this energy ends up "evil" as I have described it.

If you want to serve yourself, you should be good. If you want to serve evil, you should be evil.

Fear energy works by motivating the person to control, as much as possible, the environment around him, so that possible threats that are the causes of his fear are diminished. Again, it has nothing to do with evil.

This misconception is probably the cause of the term "darkwork", that some people relate to evil. Maybe Steve should have used another term..

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Fear energy works by motivating the person to control, as much as possible, the environment around him, so that possible threats that are the causes of his fear are diminished. Again, it has nothing to do with evil.

This misconception is probably the cause of the term "darkwork", that some people relate to evil. Maybe Steve should have used another term..

Using fear energy changes you. Believe me, if you make the commitment to fear energy and stop using love energy which is incompatible with it, you will become what anyone who has two eyes would label evil. Well, you'll lie and decieve. So some people will think you're good. But anyone who can see through your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ will call you evil.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by supertom

how can you know if someone is a darkworker, e.g rockefellar - gave away more than half his money that helpped a lot of people, in the end it was prob for his image.

Yup, he might have even deluded himself that he was working for the common good but all he wanted was to build his ego as high as possible.

[hithere]

A key point I don't believe has been made yet is the role of money in society.

As Steve has explained several times, money is a means of assessing how much someone has benefited society.

Some darkworkers might seek money as a way to further themselves by obtaining the goods and services others provide to society.

"Good" darkworkers.

Others use the faster but often less-effective methods of threat, thievery, etc. to obtain the same services.

They still force the service into society. The only difference is that they didn't "earn" it, and somebody wasn't recognized for providing the service.

It still might help a lot of people, but one person benefits less, and one person is at the risk of being imprisoned, losing property or money, or (God forbid) being put to death.

So from the money perspective...

"Big Oil." They get the oil out there, but maximize their own benefit at (in some people's opinions) the expense of others.

Al Capone. Other people *think* they benefit, but really he's the only one who benefits. Don't be like Al Capone. (Only evade taxes if you're in a really stupid government.)

Pretty much, I claim that the difference between a darkworker and a lightworker is often just how much they charge to help society.

Not always, though.

[supertom]

although steve hasnt covered it, lightworker and darkworker doesnt stop when you die, eventually you become something.

something about the work service just erks me, its like being a slave.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by hithere

"Big Oil." They get the oil out there, but maximize their own benefit at (in some people's opinions) the expense of others.

Do you know, I think that if the world had only lightworkers, no-one would use oil, or use almost none, as it's not worth the cost to the environment. They'd spend on gaining cleaner technologies and accept the extra cost.

Darkworkers tend to gravitate towards ways of "contributing" where they can create as much or more pain through hidden means than the happiness they bring. I think they just feel more at home creating hurt. Their energy, after all, is one of devolution. They incarnate the counter-movement to humanity's desire to awaken.

Politics is a fine example. If there were no darkworkers in politics, there'd be about three or four people left doing really vital functions, and things would work a lot more smoothly.

[yoopersmith]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Evil has never helped anyone.

If "darkworking" means serving the self, then of course helping yourself helps the world. Humans are made to work together.

If darkworking means evil, which is to hate life, and carries with it a desire to pervert the true nature of all things and leave nothing untouched, then no, no good ever came of it, almost by definition.

A very valid point...something else you might consider is that darkworkers help to add to pain and suffering which can lead you to awaken into enlightenment.

In the end, darkworkers work for the same boss (consciousness), completely in an unconscious manner...so all their evil deeds will still help consciouness express itself on earth.

What do you think?

[wolfgang]

everyone is a darkworker

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by yoopersmith

A very valid point...something else you might consider is that darkworkers help to add to pain and suffering which can lead you to awaken into enlightenment.

In the end, darkworkers work for the same boss (consciousness), completely in an unconscious manner...so all their evil deeds will still help consciouness express itself on earth.

What do you think?

Yup, I agree with that.

A spiritual friend of mine was talking about this topic and said something like, "evil people have the hardest part to play in this play of life". And yeah, you can't hate them for being evil, because, well, it's not like hating them will change them. Everything has its place.

It makes me realise I still have this part of me that is evil, and understand it a little better. I say to myself "I still have the choice to be evil if I want to be" and notice how it feels.

Still I'm destined to work for the side of good... this I'm fairly sure of

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Yup, I agree with that.

A spiritual friend of mine was talking about this topic and said something like, "evil people have the hardest part to play in this play of life". And yeah, you can't hate them for being evil, because, well, it's not like hating them will change them. Everything has its place.

It makes me realise I still have this part of me that is evil, and understand it a little better. I say to myself "I still have the choice to be evil if I want to be" and notice how it feels.

Still I'm destined to work for the side of good... this I'm fairly sure of

however the concept of darkwork in the pavlina world is not evil stuff. it's being motivated to be of service to yourself instead of for others.

I would ague that all people are motivated to be of service that includes yourself - or you aren't able to operate well to be of service to anybody (including yourself). there is no such thing as lightworkers. there may be darkworkers that have a bigger view of what self means.

Lightworkers could be defined as a type of darkworker that is concerned with a self that is bigger than the personal self. And being concerned with a bigger self would also include the personal self. If the personal self is not included, there would be a disregard which makes it hard to operate. Which is cured by remembering to be a darkworker to a version of self that includes your personal self.

[DerekH]

I'm really not familiar with these 'darkwork' and 'lightwork' definitions but here I go.

Darkwork defines lightwork as lightwork defines darkwork.

Too me, both have to exist for us to be able to identify either one.

Its like, unskilled workers and skilled workers. How do we know what is quality work? There has to be shotty work.

So that is how darkwork has helped us be able to define what is lightwork

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

however the concept of darkwork in the pavlina world is not evil stuff. it's being motivated to be of service to yourself instead of for others.

This is my beef with Stevie. The way he wrote all of this stuff was so vague he has spawned constant arguments over definition.

My understanding of it is that darkwork is definitely evil... according to a certain definition of evil. I think he wanted to steer clear of the word "evil" because it has religious connotations. Just like he steers clear of the word "God". Most spiritual people despite not being affliated to any one religion will use the word "God" from time to time. But to the unitiated, it's a massive source of pointless arguments due to misunderstanding of the word.

I think too that Steve might have still had a certain lack of clarity in his own mind as he wrote that stuff. I think what was left over of his christian brainwashing made him still feel like working for oneself is less noble than working for another, and he decided to link these things into his musings over good and evil. I -- though I wouldn't necessarily trust myself to know better than Steve; still I know enough to feel safe in arguing with him -- would never suggest that these two polarities are intertwined. You can focus on others while motivated by evil (for instance someone motivated to play the victim in order to manipulate strong people into helping him).

My spiritual friends all say that you must focus on securing your own happiness before working for others. Your happiness is the source of the love that flows out from you into the world. So self-focus is incredibly important for a lightworker.

[Jasper]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

This is my beef with Stevie. The way he wrote all of this stuff was so vague he has spawned constant arguments over definition.

My understanding of it is that darkwork is definitely evil... according to a certain definition of evil. I think he wanted to steer clear of the word "evil" because it has religious connotations. Just like he steers clear of the word "God". Most spiritual people despite not being affliated to any one religion will use the word "God" from time to time. But to the unitiated, it's a massive source of pointless arguments due to misunderstanding of the word.

I think too that Steve might have still had a certain lack of clarity in his own mind as he wrote that stuff. I think what was left over of his christian brainwashing made him still feel like working for oneself is less noble than working for another, and he decided to link these things into his musings over good and evil. I -- though I wouldn't necessarily trust myself to know better than Steve; still I know enough to feel safe in arguing with him -- would never suggest that these two polarities are intertwined. You can focus on others while motivated by evil (for instance someone motivated to play the victim in order to manipulate strong people into helping him).

My spiritual friends all say that you must focus on securing your own happiness before working for others. Your happiness is the source of the love that flows out from you into the world. So self-focus is incredibly important for a lightworker.

I've thought about this as well. In my opinion the lesson in the lw vs dw argument is in the polarization, not in the defenition. I think if you are trying to get to a "list" of lw actions/goals or dw actions/goals, you are taking the path of religion, deciding for others what is good/bad/etc.. (And for what, judging yourself, judging others? I think all you can do is to be aware and to observe. Objective observation will help you if for you, you are in line with your wish/goal/objective.)

In universal truth, evil, good or bad are just relatives, and therefor don't exist in utlimtate reality. Results do, and I think Steve has observed that polarizing helps getting results.

You will have to accept in all this, that these are just concepts and not ultimate truth. There is no heaven for lightworkers and hell for darkworkers. Nor is there a score card where you can check how you are doing. To be honest, I don't think it even matters how you are doing, or how I am.

It just helps to know that if your goal is of a certain type, aligning your thoughts, actions and tools with that goal, makes it easier to reach.

See yourself as being in the middle of a blank map. This map represents your life and where you are "going". You are the one deciding where the X is, where your treasure is buried. Some may think that's a good place, others may not. It doensn't matter. If you decide that your X is on the left side of the map, than moving left makes a lot of sense.
If you, during your life, keep switching where the X is, or moving towards the X in a not-straight line, it will take you longer to reach it. Observing what exactly your goal is and aligning all that you have with that goal, helps you reach it as fast as you can.

Steve's point, imo, is that if your map ends up showing a straight line, towards the X, you have chosen a polarized path and thus been the most effective. If your map ends up looking like an interesting drawing made by a 2-year old, than you haven't polarized and may have used a lot of energy for very little results.

So the discussion should be about the line, not about where the X is placed.

[CroMagna]

Darkwork doesn't help the world.

[lifeforce]

Originally Posted by pyrogen

I'm just throwing this out there for discussion. Thoughts, anyone?

It's not hard. You just have to look out the window. For one, you have computers. You have cell phones. You have airplains, trains, cars etc. Golf courts. Furniture. Food restaurants, shoppingmalls. Look at any industry. Do you really think any big corporation like sony or nike has any other goal than to make as much money as possible for their shareholders? Lightworking and Darkworking is not a behavioral model. It's just a tool to achieve peak motivation and good feelings. Personal gain motivates me. Ultimately, Darkworking teaches you to accept truths (like death and any other fears) and self reliance. Take oness for example. I don't believe in the oness consept the way steve describes it. Though I still see and understand the principle of cause and effect. Helping others might motivate you. In any case you have to provide a product or service that people like enough to buy it. No matter if it's personal gain or to save/improve the world. People are smart enough to know what they want or don't want. Just like you are smart enough to know what you would want to spend your money on.

[intellisyte]

Anyone can pervert a phlosophy or an ideal. Putting a name on something can also change the perception of it. What if they were called Greyworkers? This doesn't carry the same "dark" impression on it if you will. Man can make anything good or bad. Invoking your God to do good or harm is a twist we always use. There can be no universe without polar opposites.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Do you know, I think that if the world had only lightworkers, no-one would use oil, or use almost none, as it's not worth the cost to the environment. They'd spend on gaining cleaner technologies and accept the extra cost.

and how exactly we're going to get that "cleaner" technology? By using oil. There is simply no way to keep the charade we have going without it. It's not merely a little "extra cost". Solar, wind, etc simply do not cut it the way oil, coal and nuclear can when it comes to running a society as complex as ours. If the taps got shut off tomorrow, we'd be in chaos real fast. You're statement would have made more sense if you said "if the world only had light workers, our society would have never gotten to the point where it needed to consume so much energy to begin with". Unfortunately we are past the point of no return. We need energy, tons of it, or a lot of us are going to suffer.

something about the work service just erks me, its like being a slave.

I'm assuming you mean "word" instead of "work" in which case I agree. Not that service is "bad" per se, but they way it's pushed on us by so called "spiritual guru" types leaves me skeptical. People say they want you to "let go of ego", but that just leaves you open as prey from people with bigger egos. In fact, I'm sure those telling you to let go of your ego are the one's with the real ego problem. We need the ego, to protect us from those who are controlled by their own ego! One thing I like about Steve is that he manages to connect service to others (STO) with service to self (STS) calling them "one in the same". Maybe he stirs disagreement in some, but in my mind he better clarifies things. He gets us thinking beyond the basic "fear = evil" mantra. Yes, one can be consumed with STS (fear), but most know that. It's just as bad to be consumed with STO (love), as if makes you vulnerable to those who are consumed with STS (of which there are many). All that aside, in all honesty, a world consisting of 100% light workers sounds to me like a living hell. Is everything just dancing children and bunny rabbits? Ugh...

The love obsessed ego-annihilators are now free to tear me a new ******!

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by missing

Solar, wind, etc simply do not cut it the way oil, coal and nuclear can when it comes to running a society as complex as ours.

They do, and they don't even scratch the surface of the possibilities. Ever heard of geothermal? There's about infinity calories of self-renewing heat a few miles below our feet. DUH!

Nuclear, believe it or not, was NEVER cost-effective; it exists entirely to legitimise the "atom" and help governments refine nuclear material for their bombs. Do your research.

Darkworkers need lack. It drives the fear they depend on, and their fear creates it. That's why they love oil so much, and want people to think renewables are "impractical".

[Asmoday]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

They do, and they don't even scratch the surface of the possibilities. Ever heard of geothermal? There's about infinity calories of self-renewing heat a few miles below our feet. DUH!

Nuclear, believe it or not, was NEVER cost-effective; it exists entirely to legitimise the "atom" and help governments refine nuclear material for their bombs. Do your research.

Darkworkers need lack. It drives the fear they depend on, and their fear creates it. That's why they love oil so much, and want people to think renewables are "impractical".

Sigh. Its not that people have to agree with me, its that I sometimes feel no one even reads my posts, because I have been hampering on this point on these boards for over a year and no one seems to me taking note...

I am a Darkworker. I have been a Darkworker since before Darkworking was even a word in common self-help vocabulary.

I am also an active environmentalist. Why?

No, I don't care about the dolphins and I could give a crud about mother earth's spiritual blah-biddy-blah.

I simply do not wish to die. And, I enjoy nature walks. I don't want to loose my life or my nature walks because some jacktard couldn't adapt and find a better way to make a fortune in the energy market.

Likewise, I like cheap fuel and electricity. I can spend more money entertaining myself. Oil is finite, and thus will never be "cheap".

I am acting in my own self-interest.

Don't get me wrong -- lets say I could dump mercury into your backyard, with no consequences. If I feel the planet (which I depend on) will not be threatened, nor will it represent some crux point where the planet becomes threatened through aggregate actions, or it won't hurt some section of land I use or am fond of -- I'm liable to do it. Of course, this assumes I have something to gain worth all the effort. Its a very far-fetched scenario for me, or for most Darkworkers who aren't in charge of a large industrial conglomerate beholdent to a stock-price-finatical board of directors.

Its love that motivates us, not fear. Just not Lightworker type love.

Fear has its place in Darkworking. But, its not nearly as high on the totem pole as Steve would have you believe. And, using it as a power tool over others, long term, is amateurish and the hallmark of early steps along the path. Believe it or not, most of us with any real power rule through love and a hundred other tactics, using fear sparingly.

Really, he came from the perspective that Lightworking was love-based, and as he also (then) had the outlook that Darkworkers were the polar oppositve of Lightworkers, he figured they had to be grounded in the opposite of love. To him, the oppose of love was fear.

In truth, both are rooted in Love. Lightworkers rooted in Love for All Beings (with a sub-note that the Lightworker is also one of those beings), and Darkworking is rooted in Love of Self (with a sub-note that other beings represent a reflection, of one's self).

This love-fear dichotomy is why Steve's model sometimes breaks down and doesn't make sense.

But it doesn't matter because ultimately the paths blend into the same place. They're just different roads of getting there, depending on your disposition when you polarize.

Darkworking doesn't work for everyone, neither does Lightworking.

[Andrew Gubb]

*Shrug* if you don't use fear you're not exactly a darkworker as I see the term, dude. Not that I mean to say you can't use the word however you like. As I see it, you're non-polarised but leaning towards darkness.

Someone who is polarised to fear has the ultimate goal to be immortal. He'll do anything to increase his ego, because that way he feels more secure. Power is to increase the ego, then, and not for "self-love". So it doesn't even matter entirely if the means to power is self-defeating in the eyes of others.

If you were a darkworker as I see it, you'd obviously want cheap power -- for you, so long as it helped you somehow in your quest to increase your arrogance. And you'd hate the people who made power expensive for you, but nevertheless you'd want to be them, or even better, enslave them. If you were too weak to do that you'd become their slave and try to stab them in the back when your moment came.

[vMike]

Originally Posted by Asmoday

Sigh. Its not that people have to agree with me, its that I sometimes feel no one even reads my posts, because I have been hampering on this point on these boards for over a year and no one seems to me taking note...

I've read your posts and site and it makes lots of sense to me (like your style too). That's pretty much what I used to believe before I learned about darkworking and polarization.
However the exercises are somewhat creepy (going to funerals) and hard to grasp the meaning (rooting). Also I don't quite get the whole death cult.

I think the problem is you don't have many posts there and the forum is hardly alive. Post more frequently and maybe more personal and practical stuff and I'm sure more people will follow and join the forum.

[Mikasi]

There are many ways to see the world. Ultimately, it boils down to this: the world is what you think it is. If what you see is all things go to good, then the argument is mute. If what you need is a practical way to deal with yourself in terms of understanding what you fear, and how it motivates you, then you can set it up to label things like "lightworker" and "darkworker." Is there some objective truth that says we all have two sides to every coin? Well, what do you think? What do you decide to focus on? That then is your truth.

I love this sharing of ideas. In my world, there is definitely a place where I work toward balance between my own selfish needs and my need for service toward others. My goal is to be able to do this in a manner that involves less fear and more love. When I act from love, I am a better wife, mother, friend, daughter, sister and teacher. When I act from fear I am no good to anyone. Today, I choose love.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

They do, and they don't even scratch the surface of the possibilities. Ever heard of geothermal? There's about infinity calories of self-renewing heat a few miles below our feet. DUH!

Nuclear, believe it or not, was NEVER cost-effective; it exists entirely to legitimise the "atom" and help governments refine nuclear material for their bombs. Do your research.

Darkworkers need lack. It drives the fear they depend on, and their fear creates it. That's why they love oil so much, and want people to think renewables are "impractical".

well if it wasn't for "lack" we wouldn't need this fancy schmancy "geo-thermal, cold fusion, zero-point, wiz-bang no cost, free energy" technology to be fulfilled in life, now would we? We could just be chilling on the savanna, screwing in the long grass, appreciating "nature" as those hunter-gatherers once did. We wouldn't need our big "wired" complexity of a civilization. So why do we have it? It makes us happy? eh, I think the real reason we have it is cause we need it to protect us from, uh, nature (ie, Lions and what not). But we've gone so far that we're the predators and now we're all concerned about, um, nature? Ironic, isn't it.

never mind all that though, bring on the techno-utopia and see what kind of "light" path it leads us towards. With all the dystopian literature and art out there (ie, brave new world), don't say you weren't warned if things don't go as planned. Oh but that's all "fear based", right?