Does "Can" imply "Should"?

[Holistic Star]

I do have direction. I know exactly what I want to achieve for myself. I know exactly where I want to be. I know the things I value in myself, the things I need to work on and so on.

What I don't need is to decide for someone else where they need to be.

And by the way I can see plenty of people that do things in a half-assed way and there are better full-assed ways of doing them. I might make suggestions, but what i have found is that the things I notice are generally the things I need to work on in myself. If I'm running around taking care of everyone else's business, who is going to take care of mine?

It's like Steve saying that you shouldn't get a job, whereas there are plenty of people here saying that they are perfectly happy in their job thank you very much! What if Steve went beyond that viewpoint and actually started insisting and demanding they left their jobs because he thinks it is best for them. What if he went as far as typing a letter handing in their notice for them to 'encourage' them to leave their job because in his view having a job isn't intelligent. Is that really helping someone?

You cannot, cannot force someone to change against their will. You can inspire them, you can offer advice when asked for it, you can reflect and observe on what you see - but ultimately it is up to every individual to choose what is right for them. People need to make their own mistakes.

In the scenario I've given above, let's say you have a friend in a soul-sucking job that is draining their energy. I would tell them that there are better jobs out there. I would ask them questions about what the benefits of staying / leaving were. I would challenge them on any contradictions in their thinking. I would try to inspire them to have a bigger vision of themselves. I would tell them what I know about working for yourself. I would recommend books that I think would help them. But if at the end of all that, they felt they couldn't leave that job until they had made themselves as miserable as they could be I would still support them in that choice to stay. It's their choice, not mine to make.

And it has taken me a long time to learn this. When I was younger I wanted to save the world. I had lightworker syndrome! I wore myself out trying to make everyone happy. I still have that tendency at times, but now I learn where i need to pull back. If I hear myself say 'if only she would do X' or 'all he needs to changes is Y' I know I am too involved and invested in someone else's business.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

You cannot, cannot force someone to change against their will.

When did I advocate forcing anybody to do anything? Either my writing style is totally unclear or you're reading something into what I'm saying that isn't there.

Incidentally it's easy to force people to do stuff. Fear and greed are very effective. Sometimes people are so weak you can just set yourself up as an authority and they give all their power to you. I have a friend like that.. he'll do most things I want him to. He's not very useful to me because he feels obliged to please everyone but he's cool to play pool with. He's marginally better than me which is perfect.

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by Plato

When did I advocate forcing anybody to do anything? Either my writing style is totally unclear or you're reading something into what I'm saying that isn't there.

I read the word force between the lines:

"to not improve somebody's life is to actively harm them."

"If you don't make a judgment of what is for the best, then you cannot take action! You need a direction."

"In PDFSP this is the element of truth!!! Know reality and what is best for yourself and others."


I cannot know what is truly best for someone else. I can tell them what I think, but if I 'know' what is best for others that implies I am forcing my version of the truth on them. I have given several examples of how I would help someone I thought was in need, and when helping too much can hinder someone's development in the long run.

Originally Posted by Plato

Incidentally it's easy to force people to do stuff. Fear and greed are very effective. Sometimes people are so weak you can just set yourself up as an authority and they give all their power to you. I have a friend like that.. he'll do most things I want him to. He's not very useful to me because he feels obliged to please everyone but he's cool to play pool with. He's marginally better than me which is perfect.

This is all getting a bit weird - yes you can manipulate someone into doing what you want. I personally don't think making people do things by playing into fear and greed is the way I want to go. I prefer to see people as creative, resourceful and whole and I'm happy to contribute to their happiness and development. I trust them to make the choices that are right for them, even if that means making what I think is a 'mistake'. I wouldn't want a friend that gave all their power to me - it would annoy me!

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

I read the word force between the lines

Ok.

For a heads up, if you happen to read any of my "philsophical" posts again tell me when you're reading between the lines. Your responses were seriously confusing me.

I'm not saying force at all. Power, yes, but power isn't necessarily force.

[Michael Chui]

1. Ability implies Obligation if and only if you believe it does.

1a. Ability includes the Recognition of said Ability; if you are ignorant of your own power, then I do not see why you should be Obligated to use it.

2. Knowledge without Action is pointless. Action without Knowledge is foolhardy. Knowledge is impossible without Action. Foolhardiness is thus necessary; Mistakes are required; Improvement is thus what subsequent Action is all about.

2a. Improvement should always be based in increased Knowledge, not on the same state.

3. Improvement runs along a line between Desire and Ideal: one desires an ideal, until one reaches that ideal, which forms a Journey along which Improvement occurs. Selection of this Ideal is what Choice entails.

3a. Having established such an avenue, one desires Ability, or Power, with which one then has a second Choice of using it for Improvement, or not.

Obligation logically arises only from a natural desire to not be self-defeating. That we are blind to the honest Reasons for which we desired Powers, or that we are Disenchanted and discard past Ideals, does not negate that these Abilities were gained with such in mind.

Thus, people do not use their Abilities for Improvement due primarily to Disenchantment, and are thus not Obligated to put them to use as their Knowledge has increased. They maintain the belief that there is Obligation because the are Disenchanted with their Ideals, but have not discarded them.

And I am totally over-indulging myself in capitalizing Important Words in the old style.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

1. Ability implies Obligation if and only if you believe it does.

Yes. Though I'm beginning from the assumption that a person has a general desire to improve the greater whole or the self though. It is the top priority in their life.

1a. Ability includes the Recognition of said Ability; if you are ignorant of your own power, then I do not see why you should be Obligated to use it.

I say, don't be ignorant of your own power! Wake up!

2. Knowledge without Action is pointless. Action without Knowledge is foolhardy. Knowledge is impossible without Action. Foolhardiness is thus necessary; Mistakes are required; Improvement is thus what subsequent Action is all about.

Indeed.

2a. Improvement should always be based in increased Knowledge, not on the same state.

Yes

3. Improvement runs along a line between Desire and Ideal: one desires an ideal, until one reaches that ideal, which forms a Journey along which Improvement occurs. Selection of this Ideal is what Choice entails.

If I understand this rightly, I agree.

3a. Having established such an avenue, one desires Ability, or Power, with which one then has a second Choice of using it for Improvement, or not.

Yes.

Obligation logically arises only from a natural desire to not be self-defeating. That we are blind to the honest Reasons for which we desired Powers, or that we are Disenchanted and discard past Ideals, does not negate that these Abilities were gained with such in mind.

Thus, people do not use their Abilities for Improvement due primarily to Disenchantment, and are thus not Obligated to put them to use as their Knowledge has increased. They maintain the belief that there is Obligation because the are Disenchanted with their Ideals, but have not discarded them.

And I am totally over-indulging myself in capitalizing Important Words in the old style.

Goals change with increased knowledge? And that is a reason for us not doing our best to achieve goals? Because they may not mean much to us later on?

I must admit that my arguments are based on the assumption that you are a darkworker or lightworker type and it is not obligation that drives you. When I say obliged, what I really mean is that the rational mind should steer us down a certain course given our emotional desire to achieve general goal x.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Plato

Yes. Though I'm beginning from the assumption that a person has a general desire to improve the greater whole or the self though. It is the top priority in their life.

That seems like a rather silly assumption. Can you actually show that it has any validity whatsoever?

Originally Posted by Plato

I say, don't be ignorant of your own power! Wake up!

That's very nice. It doesn't change the validity of the statement.

Originally Posted by Plato

Goals change with increased knowledge? And that is a reason for us not doing our best to achieve goals? Because they may not mean much to us later on?

I think you've completely missed what I said.

Let's say there are a bunch of people squabbling over a frozen wasteland. You've gained the power to superheat that area of the world and make it grassy, which you believe would end the squabbling. However, when you think about it, you realize that this would accelerate global warming. Are you still obligated to superheat the wasteland, just because you can?

Originally Posted by Plato

I must admit that my arguments are based on the assumption that you are a darkworker or lightworker type and it is not obligation that drives you. When I say obliged, what I really mean is that the rational mind should steer us down a certain course given our emotional desire to achieve general goal x.

Then it's not an obligation; it's a logical conclusion. These are completely different things. If I want to make someone happy, and I know that they're happier when they get flowers, then the logical conclusion is that I should give them flowers. I am not obliged, rationally or otherwise, to do this: I do it because I have a desire to fulfill an ideal (their happiness) and the ability to act on that desire (sending flowers).

I am not obligated to fulfill my desire.

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by Plato

Ok.

For a heads up, if you happen to read any of my "philsophical" posts again tell me when you're reading between the lines. Your responses were seriously confusing me.

I'm not saying force at all. Power, yes, but power isn't necessarily force.

So how to you impliment your power?

Let's say I have a problem that you can help with. Let's say I procrasinate a lot. You can help me because you know the truth about what you think is right for me. You believe that I should stop procrastinating and start achieving my goals and for example let's say my goal is to make an income through blogging about tigers.

So.... what do you do? How do you go about it?

How do you use your power to help me?

[Brutha]

You don't need to have to draw a line to make judgments.

Moral decisions are intuitive decisions. We mainly would rescue a drowning person because we feel that we should and therefore make a decision to rescue them.

Very few people make moral decisions by following some external framework that tells them what to do.
Humans make those decisions because of emotions.

For that reason ethics professors don't make other moral decisions than the rest of us. Building a ethical framework doesn't change your answer to the "What shall I do?"-question.

There is no external criteria that you can use to answer the "What shall I do?"-question.
It a question that you have to answer yourself and you are fully responsible for the results.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Moral decisions are intuitive decisions. We mainly would rescue a drowning person because we feel that we should and therefore make a decision to rescue them.

Yes. The thing I've noticed is that as our awareness expands we see more and more situations analagous to the drowning person, until eventually we reach a point where we see the world is drowning (metaphorically) in comparison to what it could be.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Plato

If you don't make a judgment of what is for the best, then you cannot take action! You need a direction.

In PDFSP this is the element of truth!!! Know reality and what is best for yourself and others.

If you cannot see things that can make a tangible difference you must be burying your head in the sand... or more likely you don't believe in your own power.

Hi Plato:

Does this mean that if you think I need help, even though I don't want any, you're going to help me anyway?

My wife's sister and her husband used to force their assistance on us all the time, offering advice, trying to get us to be more responsible with our money, trying to get us to keep our home cleaner, etc.

We finally had to tell them to back off: it's our life and we'll deal with it as we please. I know you're probably thinking that those things don't really matter, and that you're talking about things that REALLY matter. How do decide what does and doesn't, when that's such a subjective matter?

My sister in-law really did think that those things mattered, a whole lot. To her, but not to us!

As an example, I had no idea that there are people that actually choose to be homeless. The idea that someone would choose this is beyond me, but I don't consider it my obiligation to convince them otherwise, if that is how they choose to exercise their freedom to live as they choose.

Another thing. What about those that don't see how the choices they make contributes to the terrible situations they end up getting into? I've helped people like this before, and then given them advise on how to keep this sort of thing from happening to them in the future. They were sure that I was wrong, and ended up right back in the situation I had just helped them out of. Some people take a long time to get the connection between their choices and the consequences. For others, they get the connection, but just can't leave the source of their problems alone (like alcohol). What they need is the strength to decide that they don't want to live like that anymore. This is what they really need, but how do I give them that?

I think that sometimes, the only thing that motivates people to find the strength to get out of harmful situations is knowing that no one else is going to do it for them.

Starman

[Brutha]

Yes. The thing I've noticed is that as our awareness expands we see more and more situations analagous to the drowning person,

I think that seeing part is much more important than the particular analogy.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Starman

Does this mean that if you think I need help, even though I don't want any, you're going to help me anyway?

No, for two reasons:

1. I don't care about you. Nothing personal, just saying.

2. You don't help a man by seeming to be forcing him to do stuff.

If I wanted to change you in some way I'd make it seem like it was your idea, or just make it totally reasonable for yout to comply. If I thought you were a total wussy, and that mattered to me I'd invite you along to do something that would push you out of your comfort zone a bit. Wash rinse repeat. You'll be a new man in no time. Scary stuff huh.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Plato

No, for two reasons:

1. I don't care about you. Nothing personal, just saying.

2. You don't help a man by seeming to be forcing him to do stuff.

If I wanted to change you in some way I'd make it seem like it was your idea, or just make it totally reasonable for yout to comply. If I thought you were a total wussy, and that mattered to me I'd invite you along to do something that would push you out of your comfort zone a bit. Wash rinse repeat. You'll be a new man in no time. Scary stuff huh.

Not scary, clever though.

That's my kind of thinking.

[Michael Chui]

By the way, this may be useful to bring up:

Difference is difference in degrees of “power”; in interpreting this term we must distinguish the two French words puissance and pouvoir. In social terms, puissance is immanent power, power to act rather than power to dominate another; we could say that puissance is praxis (in which equals clash or act together) rather than poiesis (in which others are matter to be formed by the command of a superior, a sense of transcendent power that matches what pouvoir indicates for Deleuze). In the most general terms Deleuze develops throughout his career, puissance is the ability to affect and to be affected, to form assemblages or consistencies, that is, to form emergent unities that nonetheless respect the heterogeneity of their components.

-- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Gilles Deleuze.

That's why I made "Power" a synonym of "Ability", rather than allowing it to stand on its own.

[Kaspian]

Originally Posted by Plato

If I wanted to change you in some way I'd make it seem like it was your idea, or just make it totally reasonable for you to comply. If I thought you were a total wussy, and that mattered to me I'd invite you along to do something that would push you out of your comfort zone a bit. Wash rinse repeat. You'll be a new man in no time. Scary stuff huh.

Do me a favor. Do not try to change me. What you said above is manipulative and invasive, and thinking about other people that way insults their intelligence. Give them the benefit of the doubt; let them learn, grow, and change on their own terms, in their own way, and on their own time line.

If you want to do good in the world, be the best *you* that you can be, create value, and offer it to those that are interested. Just don't shove your perception of value down other people's throats...

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Kaspian

Do me a favor. Do not try to change me. What you said above is manipulative and invasive, and thinking about other people that way insults their intelligence. Give them the benefit of the doubt; let them learn, grow, and change on their own terms, in their own way, and on their own time line.

If you want to do good in the world, be the best *you* that you can be, create value, and offer it to those that are interested. Just don't shove your perception of value down other people's throats...

You can be as unnecessarily aggressive as you want, but the ironic thing is that you would have no choice in the matter. That's the whole point of effective manipulation.

[Michael Chui]

You know, Plato, you're right, but choosing words that would provoke people is probably not going to get you very far.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You know, Plato, you're right, but choosing words that would provoke people is probably not going to get you very far.

True, but I think I've reached the point where it amuses me now. In the real world I tend to be more subtle (marginally)

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Plato

True, but I think I've reached the point where it amuses me now. In the real world I tend to be more subtle (marginally)

It amuses you to know you're failing to change or convince people? To make yourself out as unconvincing, incredible, unreasonable, dismissable?

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

It amuses you to know you're failing to change or convince people? To make yourself out as unconvincing, incredible, unreasonable, dismissable?

No... It's the fun of making true but "unpleasant" statements and watching the response.

Admittedly, my writing could do with a lot of improvement. And you're right in implying that I have ISSUES. Probably anger issues. They're the best kind.

[Holistic Star]

I don't think your statements are true!

[magi13]

I do believe that if you can, you are burdened with the choice to do or not to do. Your own gut instincts will tell which what to do this point.

^,^

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by magi13

I do believe that if you can, you are burdened with the choice to do or not to do. Your own gut instincts will tell which what to do this point.

^,^

The first choice is to be burdened in the first place.