Absolute Truth

[dinc]

"Everyone Lies" is now quite common knowledge, even known to very small children. People lie about all sorts of things: schoolwork, the beauty of others', their habits, their sexuality, their dreams, their role models. Why? Why do we feel the need to cover for ourselves at all?

Is it just fear of rejection, fear that people won't like us for who we are? Now that I think about it, why should we even care? If we live with a mask over our face, people don't love us for who we are, they love the mask that we've grown accustomed to wearing.

We also have to remember those lies, elaborate on them further when asked, invent new tales to cover up our old tails. It's all just a big mess.

I'm rather an extremist, so once I got to thinking about this quandary, I immediately jumped to an extreme conclusion. I should not lie. At all. Ever. Under any circumstances. This precept also happens to mesh rather nicely with my religion, so I see no hypothetical situation in which I would be morally required to lie, thought at times it would be best to withold the truth.

I've been trying to mold my life to fit my new conclusion, with some success. The only lies I now tell are purely knee-jerk, and I'm now trying to follow them up with the absolute truth.

This new philosophy has also helped me to deal with social situations much better than before. I'm usually worried about saying something wrong, or making eye contact at the wrong moment, but I no longer worry about these things as much. I used to react badly in social situations because I feared the shame that would come with rejection. But what is shame? What good is it?

I now tell myself to feel shame only for the actions that I myself find shameful. This shame is purely self-oriented, and it is not a result of the thoughts of others.

I would like to have some input about this newfound philosophy. I'm more interested in possible applications of it, but I would also be willing to discuss potential flaws with it.

[MyEyeIsOpen]

Radical Honesty

Amazon.com: Radical Honesty: How To Transform Your Life By Telling The Truth: Brad Blanton: Books

I Think You're Fat - Esquire

Radical Honesty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overcoming Bias: Radical Honesty

The Policy of Radical Honesty

[dinc]

I didn't know that my sudden revelation was really just a sudden realization. ( that sentence doesn't make much sense out of the context of my own mind)

What I mean is that I didn't know that this idea had already caught on so far. It is a very interesting concept, and I think that it can solve a lot of problems in life.

Thanks for the info.

[Chris Cade]

I've taken this stance for a while. Sometimes I unconsciously move into "not as open" mode... but that's still different than telling lies (little and white or big and bold) which I tend to avoid almost exclusively.

However, I do also recognize that sometimes literal truth is not the same as... I don't know the word for it. Maybe 'experiential' truth? Or something.

For example, suppose you abide by absolute truth and never telling a lie... and you were the one that was sheltering Ann Frank and when the Nazi's came.

When they ask about Jews, do you tell them the truth? "Oh yeah, I've got one behind the bookcase. Wanna check it out?"

Or is there a greater truth? One that says the truth of the situation is that the Nazis are acting in a way that is not in the best interests of humanity, and therefore the truth of the situation is that not telling the literal truth is the correct thing to do?

One might use a different word here... but when talking about "truth" we can certainly acknowledge that it's root... "true" can be used to describe either upholding that which is true, or to not tell a lie... both of which may or may not be the same.

Now - back to the spirit of the question

My life has been significantly easier and more peaceful since I moved to a place of being honest, first with myself, and secondly with others.

People respect my opinion more because they know I'm not going to hold any punches and because there's transparency. I connect more deeply with others for those same reasons.

Also, the simple act of pursing truth (the way A.H. Almaas describes in "Diamond Heart: Book 1") helps reduce / eliminate inner-stress. Instead of automatically responding with my idea of how a situation should be, I can step back and pause for a moment... ask myself, "What is the truth of this situation?" Then I can act (not re-act) accordingly.

[dinc]

I do think that there are times when it is appropriate to withold the truth, but I do not believe there are any circumstances which can excuse a straight lie.

For instance, you could say, "There aren't any ****ing Jews in my house". Which, technically, would be the absolute truth. There are no Jews currently having intercourse in my house.

[Chris Cade]

Originally Posted by dinc

I do think that there are times when it is appropriate to withold the truth, but I do not believe there are any circumstances which can excuse a straight lie.

For instance, you could say, "There aren't any ****ing Jews in my house". Which, technically, would be the absolute truth. There are no Jews currently having intercourse in my house.

I don't see how that is different.

Sure, semantically one could say, "literally, technically speaking they're different."

But when we get right down to it... the words don't actually matter. Words are just symbols that point to the real meaning - a meaning within us.

So it really doesn't matter if we add extra words or omit words so that we, personally, feel better about withholding the truth - the essence is still the same... we've intentionally misled the person who asked the question.

[dinc]

I suppose our definitions of "lying" are different.

How I define lying: "Speaking any direct untruth" and "Intentionally misleading someone whose business it is to know the aforementioned hidden thing". This leaves a window for "Intentionally misleading someone who has no business knowing the aforementioned hidden thing, while at the same time not speaking a direct untruth."

This definition of lying makes no logical sense to me, because you are misleading people whatever way, but it resounds strongly with my intuition.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by dinc

I do think that there are times when it is appropriate to withold the truth, but I do not believe there are any circumstances which can excuse a straight lie.

For instance, you could say, "There aren't any ****ing Jews in my house". Which, technically, would be the absolute truth. There are no Jews currently having intercourse in my house.

This is still a lie as far as I'm concerned. Your deliberately misleading a person. And calling it any less than a lie would be nothing less than immaturity.

Furthermore, to expect to get through life without ever telling a lie/fib/untruth ("white" or otherwise) would be EXTREMELY unrealistic. Theres just no way. Not only that, such an undertaking would CERTAINLY lead to immoral action.

I personally rarely find myself telling lies - [except at job interviews] but I do withhold my innermost thoughts on things quite often. Anything less would be suicide in this society!!!!!

[Parthon]

I've been living very lie free for a few years now, it's fantastic.

The Ann Frank conundrum does bring up an interesting example. I would lie in that situation, for the greater good, but I have to do some more introspection as to why. I think it comes down to the greater good, and the effect of lying.

99.99% of lies in the world are useless, or harmful. Lying disconnects you from honesty, integrity and the honest truths of the world. Now only does your mouth speak falsehoods, you start to begin to see falsehood, as you witness your own creation of lies. You start seing untruths as truths and it becomes much harder to sort everything out. Your moral and ethical compasses go off centre and you don't know which way is forward. That's where everything begins to break down.

That 0.01% where saying a lie will help the greater good, do it, know why you are doing it, be okay with doing it, feel the impact both good and bad while doing it, and stay with the full truth of the world.

As for getting through life without lying, I think it's very possible and not at all unrealistic. I've experienced it, and it's definately very realistic. I'm not quite sure how not lying would lead to immoral actions, I'm a bit confused in that area. I've found that as I've not been able to lie to cover up my tracks, I've had to clean up my tracks in order to compensate. I've become a better person by not lying, because my actions now speak for me instead of my words.

Withholding thoughts is different though, not everything thought needs to be said. This is just a case of tempering truth with love, which becomes honesty and integrity. Saying what's right, as well as what's true. Noone needs to know what you think, but you can choose to share it if it will make a positive difference.

[Revolution]

Sometimes people have asked me questions - like "did so-and-so do/say this or that? And they would usually black-mail me into telling them one way or the other. So simply saying "not telling" would be out of the question.

In such circumstances I've had to tell a lie to cover for the other person.

Okay lets play along with this one shall we? this is good... lets come up with a few examples:

1. Someone close to you (possibly suffering from an inferiority complex) asks your opinion of how good their looks are.

2. Lets just say you've got a crap-all resume but you need work to support yourself and your family... whatdya do? tell them that you left the last job because you got fed up with your co-workers or make up another better reason. Do you let your friends pose as referees in place of real ones which you don't have? {Of course you do!} What if you got fired from the last place for drinking/smoking/violence do you tell them that when they ask why you left? Do you write down the *literal* truth on your resume (including all the accurate dates of previous employment history) - even if you know it would cost you the job?

3. An annoying beggar ask you for change: you say "sorry haven't got any" or you be Mr Truth and ignore him or tell him that you DO have change but don't want to give him any. [By the way, I tried the latter once on an alcoholic and am lucky to have not gotten my face punched in that day] I've also tried ignoring but that doesn't tend to go down so well either.

4. do you lie about your age to make people feel more comfortable (once again - another case of ends justify means)

5. Your a teenager and your Mom asks if you've had sex/tried pot/tried drugs. Course you don't want to hurt her feelings (or start unnessary dramas) so you be kind and say NO.

6. Do you admit your sexual/religious/political persuasion to those who you know will not tolerate it?

7. Someone shows you their artwork (which you think is crap) and asks for your opinion. Of course you're going to sugar-coat it ... C'MON!!!

These are just everyday normal examples but I could also give plenty of the extreme Nazi-camp variety of examples if I wanted to.

I think the point is that the ends justify the means.
A person can call themselves "honest" and still indulge in the occasional lie where they see fit to avoid a negative outcome.

Lets be realistic here.

[MyEyeIsOpen]

Honesty is an odd thing. People in general are vaguely aware that our childhood understanding of what it means to be honest isn’t sufficient to describe the actual nature of it, but I suppose it doesn’t cause people enough cognitive dissonance to actually think it though. I think I’ve made progress understanding it though. First, let’s define a lie. I think I’m safe defining a lie as:

Communication with the intent to deceive.

This definition hints that it’s not merely the words you choose that define your lie, but the context as well. For example, you’ve stolen something from your friend. If your friend asks you doubtfully if you stole something from him, and you respond with “Yeah, I did,” that may or may not be a lie. If you say it seriously, then you’ve told the truth, admitting the theft. If you say it sarcastically, you intended to deceive him by feigning insult at the thought that you could have stolen the item, and made it easier to lie for yourself because you get to avoid many of the physical symptoms of lying, since you said words that could have been the truth. The net result, despite the content of your answer, is that he thinks you didn’t steal the item, when in fact you did.

But what about jokes? You say something with the intention of momentarily deceiving a person for the purpose of humor. That’s deceptive, but I think we can agree it’s not a “lie.” What about “white lies”? You tell your mom the hat looks great, you tell your friend his haircut is awesome, but neither is the case.

I think the key is understanding that the object of communication isn’t always the subject of communication.

When your mom asked you if the hat looked good, her concern was never the hat, it was her self image. She was asking you to bolster her self image so that she could face the world confidently. You responded honestly to her, that she should indeed face the world confidently.

The communication was false in that you think the hat is ugly, but the hat wasn’t the object of the exchange, only the subject. With a joke, the subject is never the object: the object is humor. You honestly want to communicate humor when you tell a joke, so it doesn’t matter that the subject of the communication was misleading.

This is exactly the case with allegories and metaphors. It doesn’t matter if we are all really in a cave watching shadows, that’s not the point (or object), that’s just the metaphor (or subject).The point is that the world as we perceive it is not the world as it truly exists, so it doesn’t matter that the subject of that communication isn’t literally true.

[Patricia]

Here's a question I've been asked once when debating this exact same idea of absolute truth:

There's a young child (3-4 years old) inside a house that will collapse for whatever reason. Being unaware of the danger, s/he refuses to come out. You can't reach the child, but you need him/her to come out or s/he will be killed. So, even though you don't have any of these things, from a distance you tell the child that you do have something s/he really wants ("candy/toys/fill-in-the-blank") to get him/her to walk or run towards you - away from the house.

Technically, this is a lie. Would you tell it to save a child's life?

I can't speak for everyone here, but I doubt anyone would have a problem with telling this lie to a child under these circumstances. Sure, there might be other solutions to the same problem that don't include telling a lie at all, but that's not the point.

Which leaves us with the question: when is it justifiable to lie? Is it at all?

One could say, based on the above example, that this is justifiable because it's meant for a greater good. Then you could apply this very excuse to other situations by saying that if you tell someone with low self-esteem that they look great, when you don't think they do, is also for a greater good. Or extend it even further to other more serious situations (lying to avoid inflicting pain on someone else, sometimes perceived as "protection"), always using the excuse that it's for a greater good. Clearly, the further you go with this, the more you're lying to yourself - and to others in the process. At some point, you shift from the actual greater good to misled and lying for your own good - such as avoiding conflict or awkward situations that you don't want to deal with (while still telling yourself that it's for a greater good). So, from one extreme to the other, where exactly do we place this thin line?

I would lie to the child in that example and then explain the situation to him/her and go get whatever I said I had. In other words, it would have technically been a lie, but I would try to make it true. But I don't tell people they look good when I don't think they do. Even if a lie has no real consequence (other than the other person possibly believing in a misleading opinion I shared), my personal choice is not to lie. But ever since I was asked the question about the child, I realized that at least in theory there's a need to consciously explore within ourselves where we choose to place this line.

Absolute truth sounds wonderful. But if I made a vow of absolute truth, I would break it if this was the only way to save a child's life.

[jtracy]

I too beleive in telling the truth all the time. I think that typically when we lie, we do it in the direction of telling the other person what we think he wants to hear. It is a misguided effort to get the other person to feel better about himself for now. We all tend to ignore how bad it makes us feel, as well as how bad they will feel once they find out that we have lied.

One could argue that any statement that comes from negativity is a lie. In other words if I told you looked ugly that would be a lie, regardless of what you actually looked like. If everyone told the truth according to that definition, it would be a very different world!

The "Anne Frank" dilemna is an interesting one. I think it is acceptable to lie if you are deliberately not telling the other person what he wants to hear because it will save another person from direct physical harm. I think that when it comes down to saving someone's life, anything is acceptable except deliberately hurting someone else in the process.

It all comes down to avoiding hurting others. Telling the truth to others is actually the kindest thing to do for them in the long run, even if they don't want to hear it now. Telling the truth is only undesirable when, in telling the truth, you are allowing someone else to be in serious danger.

[dinc]

Originally Posted by Revolution

Sometimes people have asked me questions - like "did so-and-so do/say this or that? And they would usually black-mail me into telling them one way or the other. So simply saying "not telling" would be out of the question.

In such circumstances I've had to tell a lie to cover for the other person.

Okay lets play along with this one shall we? this is good... lets come up with a few examples:

1. Someone close to you (possibly suffering from an inferiority complex) asks your opinion of how good their looks are.

2. Lets just say you've got a crap-all resume but you need work to support yourself and your family... whatdya do? tell them that you left the last job because you got fed up with your co-workers or make up another better reason. Do you let your friends pose as referees in place of real ones which you don't have? {Of course you do!} What if you got fired from the last place for drinking/smoking/violence do you tell them that when they ask why you left? Do you write down the *literal* truth on your resume (including all the accurate dates of previous employment history) - even if you know it would cost you the job?

3. An annoying beggar ask you for change: you say "sorry haven't got any" or you be Mr Truth and ignore him or tell him that you DO have change but don't want to give him any. [By the way, I tried the latter once on an alcoholic and am lucky to have not gotten my face punched in that day] I've also tried ignoring but that doesn't tend to go down so well either.

4. do you lie about your age to make people feel more comfortable (once again - another case of ends justify means)

5. Your a teenager and your Mom asks if you've had sex/tried pot/tried drugs. Course you don't want to hurt her feelings (or start unnessary dramas) so you be kind and say NO.

6. Do you admit your sexual/religious/political persuasion to those who you know will not tolerate it?

7. Someone shows you their artwork (which you think is crap) and asks for your opinion. Of course you're going to sugar-coat it ... C'MON!!!

These are just everyday normal examples but I could also give plenty of the extreme Nazi-camp variety of examples if I wanted to.

I think the point is that the ends justify the means.
A person can call themselves "honest" and still indulge in the occasional lie where they see fit to avoid a negative outcome.

Lets be realistic here.

1. Tell the truth. The relationship will most likely deepen.
2."Honey, I think I'm jobless because I have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ resume."
"Oh, then perhaps you should strengthen it."
"Perhaps I should"

"Honey, I think I'm jobless because I'm overly agressive."
"Oh, perhaps you should take an anger management course."
"Perhaps I should."

"Honey, I think I have a drug problem"
"We can work through this together."

3. "Sorry, haven't got any" is a pathetic thing to say if you do indeed have extra change. You have probably grown comfortable with saying this, now why is that? Perhaps if you told the truth and risked getting punched in the face, you would be more free with your change in the future.

4. ....Why would you do that?

5. This is not kindness. This is self-serving indulgence. The difference, in my eyes is quite obvious. The relationship becomes hollow and meaningless when your mother cannot trust you.

6. Yes. Why the hell not? Maybe your openess will help to open their mind. I'm a bisexual Catholic, and I don't give a damn.

7. " You need to work on anatomy, composition, and light direction." If someone asks you for their opinion and they don't desire it, they're fishing for compliments, which is somewhat pathetic, so they deserve an honest opinion. If they really do want your opinion, then they deserve it anyways.

[Poiesis Hagakure]

please hear me out a thought came to mind...

the movie liar liar comes to mind it may, itself, pose extreme examples but as dinc said earlier, you can define the word 'lying' to mean telling a non-truth to someone whose business it is to know the truth of the matter. and that allows you to ascertain and define for yourself their right to the information. i feel it is ultimately moral to nudge people in directions they might benefit from, through honesty. and not call them out as socially inept or incompetent [as people take this personally, no matter how compassionate the intent]! Reading the Hagakure has lead to this morality, for myself.

I feel that lies represent a larger, ongoing battle that has probably existed since conversation existed. This battle is the representation of reality, the conflict of differing visions of reality. I believe each of us has our own vision of reality, or perception of the world. We each represent this vision of reality, this perception, through our actions, words, and inner thoughts.

now--- many lie on a daily basis. some lie once in a while. some may do so compulsively, but it is my belief that the vast majority of lies [and purposeful ommissions, just as bad as lies] are done out of the effort to control others' perception of reality.

as a history major in college, these thoughts lead me to the fact that our government today [and most governments everywhere] represent what they want people to know, whether what they are saying is partial omissions of truth, complete omissions of truth, or complete fabrications of 'truth.' i think back to a time when the holy roman empire owned most of the land in europe ... to the manner in which they controlled perceptions by the visions of 'reality' that they taught, and enforced in peoples' minds, though these teachings were sometimes in direct opposition to scientific and philisophical minds' teachings about reality. ------ i guess my point is that, moreso than lying, all partial/complete omissions or fabrications you represent as 'truth,' along with all other manners in which you over-emphasize in order to affect anothers' vision of reality are all immoral. overstatement of a vision of reality, of your perception is by far the trend--- you strengthen your point of view [most people think] by adding boldness, instead of tempering it with a touch of the uncertain, with a bit of being in tune with the idea that there are six billion different realities of what is going on each day, and even moreso---- the all encompassing ideas we take for granted today will be items of humor in tomorrow's century. humility and a calm sense of responsibility for each word, a responsibility of all language, should be more present on our minds. i guess, to me even overstatement of your point of view is a kind of lie, though i'd rather call it an immorality.

that being said--- i'd tell the child the best lie i could to get them out of the house. borne of compassion! what is more important in this situation, the impulse of compassion or the definition of lying? I'd hide anne frank and fight all the other ways i could for a better world, more compassionate, and open minded. i would stress to the person with an inferiority complex the times i've seen them display strength. for some of the other examples it's more complicated. i know there are times with people intolerant of certain life styles that i will avoid certain topics as an item of perpetuating the good, open minded parts of life and not engaging their close mindedness.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Revolution

Sometimes people have asked me questions - like "did so-and-so do/say this or that? And they would usually black-mail me into telling them one way or the other. So simply saying "not telling" would be out of the question.

In such circumstances I've had to tell a lie to cover for the other person.

Okay lets play along with this one shall we? this is good... lets come up with a few examples:

1. Someone close to you (possibly suffering from an inferiority complex) asks your opinion of how good their looks are.

2. Lets just say you've got a crap-all resume but you need work to support yourself and your family... whatdya do? tell them that you left the last job because you got fed up with your co-workers or make up another better reason. Do you let your friends pose as referees in place of real ones which you don't have? {Of course you do!} What if you got fired from the last place for drinking/smoking/violence do you tell them that when they ask why you left? Do you write down the *literal* truth on your resume (including all the accurate dates of previous employment history) - even if you know it would cost you the job?

3. An annoying beggar ask you for change: you say "sorry haven't got any" or you be Mr Truth and ignore him or tell him that you DO have change but don't want to give him any. [By the way, I tried the latter once on an alcoholic and am lucky to have not gotten my face punched in that day] I've also tried ignoring but that doesn't tend to go down so well either.

4. do you lie about your age to make people feel more comfortable (once again - another case of ends justify means)

5. Your a teenager and your Mom asks if you've had sex/tried pot/tried drugs. Course you don't want to hurt her feelings (or start unnessary dramas) so you be kind and say NO.

6. Do you admit your sexual/religious/political persuasion to those who you know will not tolerate it?

7. Someone shows you their artwork (which you think is crap) and asks for your opinion. Of course you're going to sugar-coat it ... C'MON!!!

These are just everyday normal examples but I could also give plenty of the extreme Nazi-camp variety of examples if I wanted to.

I think the point is that the ends justify the means.
A person can call themselves "honest" and still indulge in the occasional lie where they see fit to avoid a negative outcome.

Lets be realistic here.

1. In this case I just say how I think they look. I find most people look beautiful to me, but I also use my intuition to tap into what's really going on for them. If they feel insecure, then it's for a specific reason, you can address that reason if you know them well enough.

2. I wrote down the truth on my last resume and in the interview was asked why it was so empty. I answered honestly, and got the job. My resume was crap, I had no references and I probably wouldn't have got the job if I wasn't so bold and honest. Also, noone has just one reason to quit, but as for what you said: "The company didn't suit me, and while the people I worked with were great, our values didn't align well. I'm aiming for a career where I can have much more of a positive impact." As for being fired for any of those things, I would say yes I did, then explain that this was the wakeup call to change my life around, and tell them how much progress I have made. If I haven't made progress, then why the hell am I applying for the job?

3. I ignore them, or give them change. Refusing to give charity is hard, but if you feel they are going to waste it, or worse: buy alcohol furthur reducing their state, then it's the right decision. Just make sure you are okay with it. Hell, if push came to shove, look them in the eyes and say "I'm not going to give you any change."

4. Hell no. I'm 28. But then I say "But I feel 24" or "Heh, how old did you think I was?" I have no idea why someone would feel uncomfortable around my age though.

5. I've never done drugs, next question! But if I had, I probably wouldn't lie about it.

6. Ha! Yeah. I actually go out of my way sometimes to be annoying to people, but only in the spirit of fun. However, if I was in a position to be brutally persecuted for having particular beliefs, I would just stay silent.

7. Okay, that's a hardish one, but, can you say anything positive about it? If they think it's great, but it's 100% **** with nothing good about it, then you'd be doing them a dis-service by leaving them in delusion.

To understand why I'm so honest though, you have to know that I used to lie, a LOT. 50 lies a day, at least a few of them huge. Because of this, I failed university, was unemployed for 10 years, was almost homeless and have been broke the whole time. It probably wasn't the major factor, but it didn't help. Every single time I lied though, it was to either sooth someone's feelings, trying to get something I didn't deserve, or just dodging some kind of punishment for a transgression.

Many of the situations people present are not the cause of lying, but the result. You do drugs to escape from your life, which is ♥♥♥♥♥♥. It's ♥♥♥♥♥♥ because you have no power because you keep lying so you can't see the truth. In order to keep doing drugs, you have to lie. If you look at people at various levels of society, the higher you go, the less lying there is(to a point). Those at the bottom, living in the slums, are the worst liars, so much so that every second sentence contains some embelishment or untruth in it. If you go up to middle class and higher, people tend to be more honest and fair. It's not completely accurate though, you still get some stinking liars up the top there.

In the end, I believe that being honest and truthful is far better for you than not, and living like that for 4 years has proved it to me.

[dinc]

Parthon has weaved a web of truth. I agree with him.

I really don't care to elaborate meaninglessly on this anymore, so I most likely won't, unless someone calls me out.

[Revolution]

Ahhh, yes, we're really starting to get to it now aren't we?

Poiesis Hagakure

You make a great point my friend, and that is that omitting information is STILL a lie. It is deception. Only the most immature mind could not see this.

Patricia and jtracy

You both have a similar message and that is that we cannot polarize ourselves to one extreme or another must must "find the line". I agree, and I would say that this "line" is ever-changing and depends on the circumstances. Many other issues in life are like this - it depends on the circumstances.

Parthon

1. In this case I just say how I think they look. I find most people look beautiful to me, but I also use my intuition to tap into what's really going on for them. If they feel insecure, then it's for a specific reason, you can address that reason if you know them well enough.

That is a beautiful perspective - but not everyone feels the same way - and so they must find a way to hide what they really think.

2. I wrote down the truth on my last resume and in the interview was asked why it was so empty. I answered honestly, and got the job. My resume was crap, I had no references and I probably wouldn't have got the job if I wasn't so bold and honest. Also, noone has just one reason to quit, but as for what you said: "The company didn't suit me, and while the people I worked with were great, our values didn't align well. I'm aiming for a career where I can have much more of a positive impact." As for being fired for any of those things, I would say yes I did, then explain that this was the wakeup call to change my life around, and tell them how much progress I have made. If I haven't made progress, then why the hell am I applying for the job?

Once again, its beautiful when something like that happens, and I must admit I LOVE telling the truth and being open and transparent. ... But sadly we live in a world of close-minded people - people who lack intuition - people who lack compassion - people who lack love - people who only play by the "rules".
For every case where being open and honest works I could show you more examples of where it doesn't. But I congratulate you for that victory all the same.

3. I ignore them, or give them change. Refusing to give charity is hard, but if you feel they are going to waste it, or worse: buy alcohol furthur reducing their state, then it's the right decision. Just make sure you are okay with it. Hell, if push came to shove, look them in the eyes and say "I'm not going to give you any change."

Ignoring them sounds dangerous. In fact, it IS dangerous.

Hell, if push came to shove, look them in the eyes and say "I'm not going to give you any change

Hmm, thats fine if your name happens to be Dwanyne Johnson if you get my drift.

4. Hell no. I'm 28. But then I say "But I feel 24" or "Heh, how old did you think I was?" I have no idea why someone would feel uncomfortable around my age though.

I don't tell my age on this forum - because then I can engage in meaningful conversations with people both older and younger than me - and they can't try to use my age/background/location as leverage. They are forced then, to stop making assumptions and consider my arguments/points for what they really are.

5. I've never done drugs, next question! But if I had, I probably wouldn't lie about it.

Well, I'll get to this in my next post. [lol] in anticipation

6. Ha! Yeah. I actually go out of my way sometimes to be annoying to people, but only in the spirit of fun. However, if I was in a position to be brutally persecuted for having particular beliefs, I would just stay silent.

You would just stay silent? But what if you were asked - this is a very real possibility.

7. Okay, that's a hardish one, but, can you say anything positive about it? If they think it's great, but it's 100% **** with nothing good about it, then you'd be doing them a dis-service by leaving them in delusion.

Okay, we can agree on this one. But omitting certain information is still deception and cannot be considered truth. The point is, we lie all the time, at least we can be honest about it.

If you look at people at various levels of society, the higher you go, the less lying there is(to a point). Those at the bottom, living in the slums, are the worst liars, so much so that every second sentence contains some embelishment or untruth in it. If you go up to middle class and higher, people tend to be more honest and fair.

I strongly dissagree with this. For a big businesman not to lie - well thats just impossible. Do you really think that all the Hollywood stars don't lie?

Hellllooooo u kiddin me?
And how many times to they need to not tell the whole truth or omit certain information. - ALL THE TIME!!!

-politicians - (okay, that was below the belt sorry)

-lawyers (renowned for their lying and deception and sly games)

If you go up to middle class and higher, people tend to be more honest and fair

Ahhhhh, couldn't dissagree more. FAIR - did you say FAIR? C'mon don't you know that 1% of America's richest hold 99% of the wealth - while people go hungry and without the basics of food and shelter?

Did you also know that most large corporations source their funds by EXPLOITING people in third-world countries?

And of course, think of all the people who HAD to lie and cheat and play "dirty" to get to the "top". I think you would be started to know the TRUTH!!!

As for people in slums - well they HAVE to lie alot. They're not as dumb as they may look.

[Parthon]

Revolution: It sounds like whether or not you lie depends on who you are talking to and the circumstance. Don't you feel a little blown about by the wind doing that?

The world is made up of a good portion of deceitful, backstabbing liars. There are plenty of situations where lying is more beneficial that telling the truth. There are millions of people gaining by lying and being duplicitous. Many movie stars, politicians, lawyers, celebrities, news reporters and famous people lie constantly.

Middle and Upper class people tend to be more honest than those in the Lower class. This isn't fact, just something I've observed. Lower class people are quicker and more willing to lie, and their lies are not as well constructed. Now, those that get to the very top, they are just really good at what they do, and if they used lying to get there, they'd be really good at laying too.

Now, even aside from all the hidden costs of lying, and the potential, but rare, positive impact, I definately don't think the world would be helped any by me lying on a daily basis. If I step out of my own personal gain, and need for personal recognition, then it's rare when a lie will improve the state of the world. The only ones that come to mind are creating a fantasy in order to make someone happier: the myth of santa claus, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy for example.

As for the act of lying, I wouldn't say not saying anything is a lie. The three facets of lying are direct falsehood, misleading a person through ommission and deliberately leaving someone with a false impression. Staying quiet and not saying anything at all is fine, it's quite honest, as long as by doing so someone isn't deliberatly left mistaken.

Ignoring a beggar: A choice to not interact. You can do it rudely, or you can be polite. My usual stance is "No thanks." or just walking straight past them. Why? Hmm. Giving them money often won't improve their situation, often it just strengthens it as they rely on it. I also don't have the time or resources to help the person directly to regain control of their life. I connect to the plight of homelessness and to each individual, but I choose to make a difference rather than service their problem.

[Revolution]

dinc

I really don't care to elaborate meaninglessly on this anymore, so I most likely won't, unless someone calls me out.

Oh, thats good because you are about to get the "calling out" of a LIFETIME!!!

1. Tell the truth. The relationship will most likely deepen.

Oh really? So, telling someone that you find them unattractive, repulsive or 2, 1 or even 0 out of ten will "deepen the relationship"? Hmm. And, by the way, it doesn't have to be someone close to you - it could be anyone.

2."Honey, I think I'm jobless because I have a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ resume."
"Oh, then perhaps you should strengthen it."
"Perhaps I should"

"Honey, I think I'm jobless because I'm overly agressive."
"Oh, perhaps you should take an anger management course."
"Perhaps I should."

"Honey, I think I have a drug problem"
"We can work through this together."

Your first paragraph doesn't really make sense, because the only way to strengthen an "honest" resume would be to get more work to put on it.
I made a very good point with this but you have given a rather thoughtless response.

Let me tell you something love, if EVERYONE was honest to the T on all the information and references on their resume and all the info they gave out at their interviews then this world would have a recession of the likes you couldn't even imagine. 98% of people would be unemployed. Face it.

3. "Sorry, haven't got any" is a pathetic thing to say if you do indeed have extra change. You have probably grown comfortable with saying this, now why is that? Perhaps if you told the truth and risked getting punched in the face, you would be more free with your change in the future.

Yeah, well what about all the beggars who are nothing but alcoholics or drug addicts or fakes. And there are quite a few, believe me. Why should I support someones drug addiction?

Responded to 4 in the last post, onto 5:

5. This is not kindness. This is self-serving indulgence. The difference, in my eyes is quite obvious. The relationship becomes hollow and meaningless when your mother cannot trust you.

Its not so much about the Mother trusting their daughter/son. But more the other way around. You see, alot of parents lack perspective and wisdom on things and they simply don't know how to react to certain issues.
And even for a wise parent (assuming you had one): why would you want to upset/worry them by admitting to drugs/sex etc. But I suppose, it depends on the situation. Sometimes admitting such things MAY be a good idea. Emphasis on the word sometimes.

6. Yes. Why the hell not? Maybe your openess will help to open their mind. I'm a bisexual Catholic, and I don't give a damn.

Oh, boy, we're really getting into the juice now. Somebody is probably really, really and I mean REALLY going to hate me for what I'm about to say but hey!

Alright, as Parthon previously pointed out sometimes, such relelation could lead to REAL danger or even death. Depends which country you live in I guess.

Do you have any idea of how much pain and suffering has been caused by such unneccessary revelations? How many times have I heard about people getting beaten up, killed, or outright rejected/dissowned by their own family.
If I was gay, I would keep it to myself as much as possible and I certainly wouldn't try to explain it to people I JUST KNOW would not understand. You have it ask yourself: is it worth it?

I'm a bisexual Catholic, and I don't give a damn

No, you just don't give a damn do you.

Okay, I will have to word this carefully so as not to get kicked off the forum for "intolerance" or something like that. So I will use *questions*

bisexual Catholic

: do you think that maybe just MAYBE this is an oxymoron - a contradiction in terms?

Are you not telling a lie to all those that witness your life? - On the one hand you seem to be saying that you are deeply religious - (the Bible is "true"), (the Bible is infallible), (the Bible is the "word of God") ... and on the other hand you seem to be saying that you are a free spirit - that it doesn't matter what it (VERY CLEARLY) states in the Bible in regards to homosexuality - that you can choose to live any which way you want to. Sounds like a double life to me. Are you being honest with yourself?

Okay!, thats it... I said it. Now you can get really mad and pissed off if you want to - Go on, let it out...

7. " You need to work on anatomy, composition, and light direction." If someone asks you for their opinion and they don't desire it, they're fishing for compliments, which is somewhat pathetic, so they deserve an honest opinion. If they really do want your opinion, then they deserve it anyways.

I remember once in high school there was this girl I liked and she showed me her artwork - and it was so bad that I honestly couldn't even tell what it was she was trying to duplicate --- thats how bad it was.

I was like "oh, yeah, its pretty good, I see you have some talent there!". And the sad thing was - she actually thought it was good!!! I wanted to give her at least some constructive criticism but I since I couldn't even figure out what it was she was trying to paint - what could I have said!!?

Another thing about that girl: she seemed to be overly nice - like too good to be true kind of nice - I kind of felt like shouting: SHOW ME THE REAL YOU!!! - YOUR NOT THAT NICE DAMNIT!!! Oh, well the relationship didn't get too far - but it was probably because it was too hard to establish a connection when she wasn't even being herself.
Maybe if we were both being more honest it would've helped to "break the ice".

There is so much more to "honesty" than words. I remember as a young kid I used to play around with word games with my parents - like "no, I didn't pour *all* my milk down the sink" - when secretly I knew I wasn't lying because I only poured *half* of it down the sink!!!
Very mature, I know.

Conclusion: Realise that people (including you) omit/withhold, colour and emphasise information all the time. This is lying and no less. Don't kid yourself. It deceives the listener. Admit that some lies are necessary and ask yourself, which is more important - being a good person or not telling a "lie".
You must learn where to draw the line at all times - life will continually put you in positions where you must place this line. Where, exactly you place the line is up to your own conscience.

At the end of the day, its your intentions that count, not some little technicality.

Being open, honest and transparent feels good, but life is not always that convenient...

What is "right" or "wrong" is circumstantial.

It has always been that way. Nothing is intrinsically "wrong" or "right".

[dinc]

Holy hell, Revolution. That's quite a bit of text you've got up there. I should be here all night... I'm not quite sure whether to go point by point or what.

First, you irritate me. I don't subscribe to the whole "Radical Honesty" movement, so I have no problem with the necessary filter between brain and mouth, but you were obviously trying to irritate me, so I'll give you props for succeeding. I did not expect so short and shallow a post to be challenged. I was too lazy to flesh out my initial post, so I expected to be ignored.

Second, I would like to emphasize that I define lying in a certain way. I believe I posted it somewhere:

How I define lying: "Speaking any direct untruth" and "Intentionally misleading someone whose business it is to know the aforementioned hidden thing". This leaves a window for "Intentionally misleading someone who has no business knowing the aforementioned hidden thing, while at the same time not speaking a direct untruth."

First, let's start with the bisexual Catholic thing. I wasn't really offended by that in particular. I expected it. I choose to live my life in a certain way. I can at the same time both acknowledge my sexuality and choose not to act on it. There is no Catholic teaching that condemns anyone of any sexuality. There are Catholic teachings that condemn people who practice certain sexual acts.

What I mean to say here was that I did not care whether or not anyone else knew that I was bisexual. Obviously such truths would be very dangerous in certain portions of the world, but I once again refer to my definition of lying. I believe that definition is accepted by the Catholic church if you care to know, though I doubt you do.

1.
In the short time since I've adopted this philosophy ( I do not yet swear by it. Practical tests are better than theories anyhow), I have not lied about anyone's physical appearance. The only thing that I've gained thus far is a greater understanding of the person involved, and yes, a deepened relationship.

The problem you seem to have is with the line between truth and cruelty. I would not call someone hideous or other such words. I don't see the necessity. Once again, I'll say that I don't totally subscribe to the whole radical honesty movement. I didn't even know one existed up until now.

If someone asked me "What do you think of my appearance?", and I found them ugly, I would say, " You do not look attractive to me." I doubt this will be anything earth shattering for the other party if they already consider themselves unattractive. There are different people in the word. Some people might appreciate this candor, while some might not. I think it would be arbitrarily better to align myself with truth, and disappoint some people, than to align myself with a lie, and disappoint myself as well.

You may argue that most people want to hear good things about themselves, which is why they're asking. You may argue that their emotional well being rests squarely on your shoulders, but from my personal experience, people go opposite ways. For every person I've met who wanted nothing but a compliment, there has been one who wanted criticism.

And there is always the incontrovertible fact that, while people may not always get what they want, they often get what they need. If a person's emotional state is so fragile that it depends entirely on your comments concerning their physical appearance, they already need serious help.

2. As I understand it, a resume is not difficult to strengthen. Can't you add different skills and areas of expertise to your resume? Aren't there third party tests that could verify and confirm your expertise in these areas? If you happen to be an artist, a portfolio is basically a resume, correct? You could take on a few pro bono projects in order to strengthen it. You could apply this concept to almost any field of work.

You exaggerate here. You're saying that most people do not deserve their jobs? Well, then you're probably right. If someone can outwork you in a certain area, then you should be fired. If you cannot adequately demonstrate to the hiring company that you are able to perform well, without lying, then you most likely do not deserve your job. Unemployment rates would most likely remain the same, but the standards of education across the world might increase.

3. You do not know this. Why assume it? Of course, we all must deal with assumptions and labels in order to live life without everything being dreadfully inconvenient, but it seems odd that you would refuse a poor stranger money on the grounds that they might not need it. That could be compared to leaving your wife because she may or may not have slept with someone.

If you really do feel responsible for that person's hypothetical addiction, why not buy them a sandwhich? It'd take about three minutes, depending on the time of day.

Still, letting that lie, you are saying that you do not care. Which is perfectly fine by me. People are entitled to their apathy, even if it does make them jackasses at times.

4 (really 5 I guess). Your argument is that the parents may lack sufficient wisdom and understanding concerning such potential situations. I think this may be cured by more honest.

"Did you have sex?"
"I feel very uncomfortable discussing such subjects with you. Because [insert why here]"

You could argue that a parent will take such an answer as an affirmative and promptly throw you out the house. If this is indeed the case, much bigger problems are at hand, and you will probably be better off living with another relative anyway.

If you had a wise parent, there would be no problem. Well, of course there would be a problem, because you would admit to it, but they would most likely accept the situation with understanding and compassion. Keeping your troubles from wise and helpful folk is supreme idiocy, especially when your silence may just cause them more grief in the end.

6. I completely understand your point of view here, and I also completely disagree with it. This, however, can depend completely on the person. Would you rather live in peace with people who abhor the real you, or would you rather live in mild to extreme uncomfort with people who love the real you?

I am choosing to stand on priniciple rather than comfort, and I believe that it will make me much happier in the end. Even if it does not, I will at least be much more peaceful in the end.

Eh, your choice of words here is aggravating in the extreme... Though I suppose I did passively insult you in my last post (simply out of laziness. I did not want to clarify points.), you seem to be very aggressive here, and I'm not sure why that is. It confuses me.

Skipping 7, already addressed.

I do realize what you are saying. I do lie. I try not to, but I do. I am very new to this, and uncertain if it works, hence I cannot say for certain if there are circumstances which will ever require a baldfaced lie. What I can say for certain, is that is has been working for me so far,and the majority of the situations you have presented seem to be easily fixed with an old fashioned application of honesty.

Below is humor, feel free to take it with as much salt as you wish. A bucket will be provided.

At the end of the day, it is what you've done that counts, not what you've thought you've done. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Being open, honest and transparent feels good, but life is not always that convenient... This inconvenience is primarily caused by liars.

What is "right" or "wrong" is absolute. It has always been that way.

I can state things too :P!
</humor>

I do not wish to fight with you. I like discussions such as this, but any learning that may go on is almost always inevitably trumped by bad feelings. I think there may be a logical inconsitency in my post somewhere... Hell, I think there may be several, but I don't want to be right ( as much as that soothes my ego), I just want to discover the truth.

[Patricia]

Originally Posted by Revolution

Patricia and jtracy

You both have a similar message and that is that we cannot polarize ourselves to one extreme or another must must "find the line". I agree, and I would say that this "line" is ever-changing and depends on the circumstances. Many other issues in life are like this - it depends on the circumstances.

The only problem with this is that the criteria each person uses to judge circumstances varies greatly - criteria being the main word here and not variety per se (variety is ok, each one of us have our own set of values and perceptions). I personally think that defining criteria is more important than judging circumstances as they arise, one by one. This criteria sets the rules for behavior, that's the "line" you define for yourself and what you'll live by, even if it needs fine tuning every once in a while when circumstances require that.

For me, personally, there are very, very few situations in which I'd choose against total honesty - saving the kid's life being a good example of the exception.

That said, honesty can be delivered in two different ways, basically: with compassion, or without - or with a neutral tone/intention, even. Finding ways to be honest without disregarding the other person's feelings is how I choose to deal with these things. Total honesty doesn't need to be hurtful or mean. This is what Poiesis Hagakure is suggesting in his answer, if I got it right.

Poiesis Hagakure also put it really well when he said:

Originally Posted by Poiesis Hagakure

many lie on a daily basis. some lie once in a while. some may do so compulsively, but it is my belief that the vast majority of lies [and purposeful ommissions, just as bad as lies] are done out of the effort to control others' perception of reality.

I agree with that. People have different motivations behind this choice, but ultimately, this is usually more a matter of an inner need for control than it is for the other person's (the one being mislead, lied to) "own good" - although frequently this is what people are telling themselves instead. And in many cases, this is simply their inner psychological mechanism working in the background to make the lie seem justifiable so that they don't feel so bad about it. In other words, this is someone lying to him/herself as well, as far as I'm concerned.

Lying to someone else claiming it's for their own good, or for the other person's sake, doesn't seem compassionate to me either. When someone does that, they are making a lot of assumptions about the other person. There are many people in the world, myself included, who would rather hear the truth even if it's something they won't like, than being lied to or mislead. Other people would prefer to be left in the dark. Assuming that you know that the other person would choose (if given the choice) the latter isn't compassion. It's patronizing. And it's the person holding back the truth trying to control that reality, those circumstances and the consequences according to their own perception alone. So how exactly is this for the other person's sake? It is my belief this type of "good intention" is simply a mask for people's fears, inabilities, social conditioning and so on and so forth. Even when those things are well below the surface, deeply hidden in their subconscious minds.

This all reminds me of an episode of Charmed (those of you who used to watch it might remember) in which Leo, who is married to Piper, becomes an Avatar as the only way to save Piper's life - without her knowledge. Avatars are being perceived as a threat, a force of evil, at that point in the story, so Piper and her sisters (the witches) are trying to find out everything they can about them so that they can fight them. Leo is told by the Avatars that the sisters are not ready to learn the truth. That the Avatars are not a threat, but they must come to the truth in their own time and in their own way, when they're ready. Otherwise, the lack of knowledge and understanding will make them be seen as a threat indeed, in which case things could go really wrong. Meanwhile, Piper senses that Leo is hiding something from her. As a force of pure good, Leo doesn't want to lie to her and feels conflicted. He believes that she'll be able to handle it and understand it. So, against the Avatar's will, he ends up telling her the truth and even though she does end up handling it and understanding, the others don't and it ends up being a complete disaster (just as the Avatars had predicted) culminating in the death of one of their friends and with Leo almost getting killed himself. Avatars have the power to turn back time, so they do that to restore things to what they were, right before Leo had told Piper the truth. But Leo keeps the knowledge and awareness of what happened.

Now here's the interesting part: at the end of this episode, Leo understands that telling the truth will put people's lives at risk, so he can't do that just yet. At the same time, he doesn't want to keep lying to his wife. So the way he chooses to deal with that is by saying (paraphrasing): "Piper, I know you think I've been hiding something from you. It's true, I have. Not because I want to, but because I have to. I can't tell you what it is, but what I can tell you is that you'll find out soon. And you're gonna be ok with it".

I know it's fiction, but this illustrates my point very well. It's a very good example of how we can be completely honest while at the same time being compassionate and standing on our values. And this is also what I mean by defining criteria. He won't lie to her, period. Even when he can't tell the truth - if that makes sense.

(Charmed is full of philosophical dilemmas like this one )

[Fullcrum]

Perhaps to lie or not to lie is not the fundamental question at hand and perhaps a faulty paradigm instilled in us through social conditioning, but instead we must act in accordance with our purpose. Whatever we decide is our purpose, that determines if we lie or not. Those of you who speak of the "greater good" speak of purpose. What is the purpose of communication? Whatever you are trying to achieve through your communication - that should dictate if you lie or not.

Perhaps your purpose is to cover yourself up and hide information. Then you would lie. If your purpose is to reduce the burden negative thoughts weighing down upon your mind, no matter the physical consequences, you may, for example, turn yourself in for a crime. That is the purpose. These smaller purposes tie into your greater purpose, whatever that may be.

In truth, the main reason most of us realize that it is better to tell the truth than to lie is to increase the efficiency with which we operate, forcing us to become more consciously aligned so we have less to hide, and reducing the "mental burden" of carrying lies around. That is one positive benefit of the truth. Another is the assumption of responsibility for your life, and, to take it further, for everything in your reality. This is one the core tenements of subjective reality. We create our reality through our thoughts, so perhaps we will create a more harmonious, efficient, effective, and powerful reality through the uncluttering of mind and purity of purpose of intention. This is where polarization comes in.

And on and on.

[Brutha]

Perhaps to lie or not to lie is not the fundamental question at hand and perhaps a faulty paradigm instilled in us through social conditioning, but instead we must act in accordance with our purpose

I think that there still time in which lying in accord with someones purpose is wrong.
Politics is a good example. I don't want a politician to lie to me even if that politician thinks that it well help the world if people believe in the lie.

Truth has value.

Standing for some principles has also value. If you are attached enough to certain principles people around you will respect you, because you are authentic.
You do get some short term again if you tell someone who asks you: "Do I look fad.":
"You look very attractive to me."

On the other hand you might also respond to the question differently. You might ask the person for the intention of their question and get into a deeper conversation about their self image.
The person who asks a question like this is usually not interested into an analysis of their image but about something else.
You can give the person the acceptance that he/she seeks without telling a lie.

[dinc]

I agree with Brutha. Opinions are always subjective. There is always some "greater good" to be served, and most people are willing to manipulate and lie to achieve theirs. Truth will always have real value.

I don't really want to write a huge wall of text again, but once again I'll say that I'm too lazy to flesh this post out, while I still wish to contribute to the conversation. I think my intentions and meanings can be read inbetween the lines, without clarifying everything, and I hope it's enough.

As an experiment in truth today, I officially came out as bisexual to my parents. I had been waiting for a convenient way to bring this up since I had taken to telling the truth. They were very understanding and compassionate about the whole matter, I feel more understood, and the world keeps on turning... Funny how things like that work.