Piracy and education

[ar81]

There is a thread in this forum about software piracy as unacceptable here.

A friend of mine has a 5 year old daughter.
She asked him if caribbean pirates still exist.
She was happy when she knew that there are still some...
It looks like Johnny Depp brought some charm to pirates.
In Somalia coast, pirates steal UN supplies and food for the poor.
They also hijack ships and engage in extorsion schemes.

At Egosoft forums you see plenty of threads of piracy.
X games allow you to loot cargo from cargo vessels.
But talk about software piracy and you are near a ban.

At Atari forums, you are banned for software piracy.
But Independence War 2 allows looting and piracy too, and it is very enjoyable.

In developed countries software pirates and sea pairates are seen as different things.
But in third world, a pirate is a pirate, no matter if he has an eye patch for selling pirated DVDs or for looting cargo in the sea.
A pirate is a pirate and not an honest entrepreneur who does legal things.

So it brings not only the semantic issue, but also the problem of values.
Is piracy (stealing cargo from vessels or software from developers) good or bad? Why software piracy is bad and sea piracy is good in the eyes of Hollywood?

Do we have a double standard in our societies?

On a side note, this thread is about contradictions in education and values.
Please avoid defending copyright violations.
I make software and I do not support piracy in either way. It is that the double standard is troubling in my opinion.

[Conan Stevens]

Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor is a nice romantic notion, but try it in real life and the software companies will slap you down hard as they can... because they have the power to do so.

OR you could go live in a country that doesn't care about software piracy, there are many around.

[Trezker]

Of course Hollywood thinks IP piracy (the non profit kind) is bad, they think they're loosing huge piles of money because of it. In reality they probably loose a lot more from trying to stop it...

The good old traditional piracy depicted in movies is history. Big ships in wood with huge sails and lots of people climbing in ropes is just entertainment. Also, pirates talk funny.

Has Hollywood made any entertainment movies about modern pirates? When they do appear in films they're depicted as something bad and of minor importance to the story.

[ar81]

Do terrorists from 20th century talk funny? No.
Pirates were the terrorists of those old times.
I see some non educational element there.

It is just like the game Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries.
The game is quite good, but the background message of seeing the killing of people like fun or making money for killing people is quite uneducational.
Mercs are not covered by Geneva Convention. Showing kids that being a merc could be fun is not funny.

[silicon toad2000]

I think the main reason we see the different forms of piracy as being different (I'm not getting into the rights or wrongs of either) is that when cargo is stolen at sea, whoever owned that cargo now has less than they had before. With software piracy, when the IP is stolen, the owner of the software has no less or no more than they did before the ip was stolen.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by silicon toad2000

With software piracy, when the IP is stolen, the owner of the software has no less or no more than they did before the ip was stolen.

If I spend a few entire weeks to code a tool, and someone else comes and pirate my tool, is that good?
Did the pirate steal something?

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by ar81

If I spend a few entire weeks to code a tool, and someone else comes and pirate my tool, is that good?
Did the pirate steal something?

According to the definition of stealing, no, nothing was stolen.

According to subjective reality and all that, people only pirate from you because you worry about it.

You should only focus about how to provide as much value as possible and how to get value back for it. Don't waste your time trying to stop pirates, instead ask them what you can do to get more of them to pay for your product.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Trezker

According to the definition of stealing, no, nothing was stolen.

Yes, you would have stolen the work of other people.
If you do lots of work for me and I do not pay you, nothing was stolen under your definition.

[pkeod]

Try being a developer whose cash flow suffers from people pirating your work.

[bluedragon]

I don't believe a developer suffers if someone who whould never afford to buy one of his products downloads a pirated copy instead.
I think it's important to see beyond the social "rules" and generalizations and think about wether that person actually caused any prejudice to another person, and if the prejudice caused is in any way even comparable to the one he would have suffered himself if he wouldn't have done it. For example, maybe by getting a pirated copy of windows, one is able to access the internet, and the information and education he will get will contribute to him becoming a successful business man, who will later found a big corporation which will purchase hundreads of original copies of Windows and ohter software to install on its computers.
And of couse movies depict modern pirates as a positive example. Look at Ocean's Eleven, 12, 13... How many wouldn't like to be like Danny Ocean ?

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I don't believe a developer suffers if someone who whould never afford to buy one of his products downloads a pirated copy instead.

You and I both know that those unfortunate souls do not make up the majority of the people who pirate software and media.

Piracy most certainly is a problem. If people don't buy the games I work on or the music I make, I don't eat - simple as that.

But loudly crying wolf about piracy being a problem is not much of a solution. Here's a novel idea: why don't we ask the pirates why they do it?

The thing is, most people love paying for software, music and movies. They really do, but you have to offer them the right product! If piracy is a problem for you, your product offerings need to become more compelling for your clients - they need to be better than what the pirates offer.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

The thing is, most people love paying for software, music and movies. They really do, but you have to offer them the right product! If piracy is a problem for you, your product offerings need to become more compelling for your clients - they need to be better than what the pirates offer.

Costs of making music:
-Manpower $954
6 hours to compose/produce 5 minutes of music.
60 hour to produce 50 minutes.
-CD manufacturing $2000
1000 CDs

Total $2954

Cost of pirating:
-Manpower $88
1 minute to setup software to burn a disk and then do something else
-CD $500
1000 CD-R

Total $588

Now you tell me how a musician can offer a better deal than a pirate.

[pkeod]

I read a lot about what pirates think. Most just want stuff for free. They don't want to pay for stuff, and if they can get it for free they will just download a cracked version. The funny thing with games is that some people also say they only pirate crappy games... to play them. That doesn't make sense.

I'd rather people not use my software if they can't afford it. I work with niches so it doesn't make sense for someone to use my software free and then buy 100 copies some imaginary time from now. That just doesn't happen with the kind of software that I developer. Is it my fault for catering to a niche and not developing for a more mainstream audience? Would it be better that the niche my software fills not be filled? Stealing software on every level hurts developers. If someone is stealing from a big corporation then maybe the damage is not noticed, but for someone like me who caters to a very specific niche, every lost sale due to someone pirating the software and then using it for free means my business suffers while they profit from my work. That's not cool. That's not okay. $#!& people who think they have the almighty right to use my software without a legitimate license even if they are using it under the guise of educating them self.

[pkeod]

Oh, and to get onto the internet one only needs to download a free copy of linux no need to pirate.

There is also plenty of open-source software that fills so many niches that there is very little need for the general population to even consider piracy.

Choosing a desktop Linux distro

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by ar81

Yes, you would have stolen the work of other people.
If you do lots of work for me and I do not pay you, nothing was stolen under your definition.

If I do lots of work for you and expect to be paid I assume we have a contract. So if you don't pay me for my work it's a contract breach, not theft.

No matter how many times people copy your IP you do not loose anything. It is still possible for you to do anything you want with your IP because you still have it.

Copying is never stealing. It's just a rebellion against private monopolies.

[JimOfferman]

Now you tell me how a musician can offer a better deal than a pirate.

The musician can offer a product that is more convenient. The iTunes store is much more convenient than the pirate bay... faster downloads, songs that are always properly tagged, the album art is always included and I don't have to wade through a ton of shady sites to get my stuff.

I can also offer you more than just the music: buy a CD and get tickets to my next show. Pirates can't beat that.

Buy a CD from me and you'll get access to a special area on my website. Pirates can't beat that.

Give me money and I'll let you decide which songs will be on my next CD. Pirates can't beat that.

I'm not saying that you have to do these things, or even that it's what I'm doing... just that you, the creator, have options that the pirates don't have.

Understand your market, pirates included, and you'll learn how to make a profit.

[Razvan]

Hi ar81,

I think some people have this desire to steal or loot. This is why games and movies that allow people to do this are so successful. People get to do what they desire without hurting anyone and without getting punished.

This is the society we live in, although this is the case of some people and not all of them. A little handful of people that have the power, like company owners, have chose to create a society where easy money is a great thing and looting is not bad. If they were to choose the other way around, they wouldn't make so much money. It's kind of: "Give the people what they want, even if it ends up killing them".

It's also very hard to fight piracy, at all levels, and this is also a reason why this is happening.

I embrace you,
Razvan Dobre

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by pkeod

Stealing software on every level hurts developers.

Of course. But does it have the same impact? According to your following affirmation,

Originally Posted by pkeod

If someone is stealing from a big corporation then maybe the damage is not noticed, but for someone like me who caters to a very specific niche, every lost sale due to someone pirating the software and then using it for free means my business suffers while they profit from my work.

It appears that stealing on different levels has different impacts, as oposed to the same.
That's why I said I think it's better to look at wether such a theft is really hurting anyone and to what extent. Maybe in your case piracy is really an issue, and if my work involved using products from you niche, I personally would rather find the funds to buy the software than pirate it. However, I am currently unable to buy Windows AND all the applications needed, and if I weren't comfortable with the idea of pirating, I would never have owned a computer until the age of 21. Would you want that? Maybe some developpers would, by I wouldn't, so I just decided to do my best to get what was a necessity to me.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Trezker

If I do lots of work for you and expect to be paid I assume we have a contract. So if you don't pay me for my work it's a contract breach, not theft.

No matter how many times people copy your IP you do not loose anything. It is still possible for you to do anything you want with your IP because you still have it.

Copying is never stealing. It's just a rebellion against private monopolies.

The contract is called law. If there was no labor law, even if we had a "contract" you would not be paid. Same happens with copyrights. By using a copyrighted software or listening music, you are engaging in a contract which has terms and conditions stated by law.

Rebellion against private monopolies?
Developers are usually underpaid by big software publishers and their only source of income are sales royalties. If you pirate the software as "rebellion" you are hurting a developer more than the publisher.

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by ar81

The contract is called law. If there was no labor law, even if we had a "contract" you would not be paid. Same happens with copyrights. By using a copyrighted software or listening music, you are engaging in a contract which has terms and conditions stated by law.

Rebellion against private monopolies?
Developers are usually underpaid by big software publishers and their only source of income are sales royalties. If you pirate the software as "rebellion" you are hurting a developer more than the publisher.

If you're an underpaid developer you're working for a bad company anyway.
Decent software developers are badly wanted here in Sweden. Specialized workers should be well paid. You're too negative about the situation, find a way to make more money instead of just finding excuses for your misfortune.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by ar81

Developers are usually underpaid by big software publishers

Such underpaid developers would do well to negotiate better contracts or find a different publisher.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Such underpaid developers would do well to negotiate better contracts or find a different publisher.

See for example the case of Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford.
They made the "Game of the year" awarded game Star Control II.
Why didn't they make a sequel?

Because to finish Star Control II they had to take $50000 from their own pockets to complete the project, and Accolade wanted an even cheaper game for the sequel. So Accolade hired cheaper developers who made a crappy product and later as game didn't sell they said "market lost interest in the franchise".

You may download a clone of Star Control II from The Ur-Quan Masters - Downloads which uses the source code of the 3DO version that the authors released to the public.
You need the installer and contents. Remix contents is optional.

You have the groundbraking game Independence War 2 that was made by Particle Systems. Developer company was purchased and disbanded.

The problem is that there are more developers than projects, there are great ideas but funding not always come as it should. There is a lot of injustice there.

There are countless other examples.

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by ar81

See for example the case of Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford.
They made the "Game of the year" awarded game Star Control II.
Why didn't they make a sequel?

Because to finish Star Control II they had to take $50000 from their own pockets to complete the project, and Accolade wanted an even cheaper game for the sequel. So Accolade hired cheaper developers who made a crappy product and later as game didn't sell they said "market lost interest in the franchise".

You may download a clone of Star Control II from The Ur-Quan Masters - Downloads which uses the source code of the 3DO version that the authors released to the public.
You need the installer and contents. Remix contents is optional.

You have the groundbraking game Independence War 2 that was made by Particle Systems. Developer company was purchased and disbanded.

The problem is that there are more developers than projects, there are great ideas but funding not always come as it should. There is a lot of injustice there.

There are countless other examples.

Yes, and that's because the publisher is greedy and frankly pretty stupid. Had they just let things take its natural course with the original dev team the third game would've probably been a big success. This has nothing to do with piracy.

The thinking seems to go, "Well that game sold really well, lets make a quick and dirty sequel real cheap and milk this sucker".

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by ar81

Because to finish Star Control II they had to take $50000 from their own pockets to complete the project, and Accolade wanted an even cheaper game for the sequel.

Thanks for proving my point...

These guys left the crappy publisher that was Accolade to go work for Crystal Dynamics (which co-incidentally happens to be who my company works for as well) until their company (Toys For Bob) was bought by Activision in 2002. Accolade went south a long time ago and, yet, these guys are still in the business of making games.

I would not call that unjust.

If you are a developer and you are not paid well enough by your publisher, don't blame your publisher but blame yourself for signing the stupid contract!

[silicon toad2000]

if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound.
If IP is pirated and no one notices, does it make a theft.

I think it's a thing of dergee's. I think priacy's social acceptability is proportional to the ratio of the pirated party's wealth and the value of the pirated ip.
It seems to be the smaller the thing is and the larger the owner of the ip, the more socially acceptable it is.
Pirating a poverty sticken coders life work does not seem to socially acceptable but running a illegitimate version of the largest software corpations wares seems to be quite socially acceptable.
I think the only clear line seems to be that profiting from pirated IP is wrong, I think the number of people you'll find who will admit that they think it is ok to seel something which is not yours is very small.

[Brutha]

Getting a job and being well payed as a game developer is harder than getting a well paid software development job elsewhere.
It's a supply and demand thing. A lot of kids that play a lot of computer games want to make their living as a game developer.

if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a sound.
If IP is pirated and no one notices, does it make a theft.

That more or less the question of whether you believe in utilitarian morals or in some form of idealistic morals.

From a utilitarian perspective only those things that harm others are immoral.
The question of whether it's a theft is a idealistic one that isn't important for the utilitarian, who cares only for harm done to others.

People who see themselves as liberal either in the traditional sense of the word or in the strange american version of the word usually don't follow idealism. Idealism is something for conservatists.
You usually can't convince liberals with arguments that are completly based on idealism.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by ar81

Costs of making music:
-Manpower $954
6 hours to compose/produce 5 minutes of music.
60 hour to produce 50 minutes.
-CD manufacturing $2000
1000 CDs

Total $2954

Cost of pirating:
-Manpower $88
1 minute to setup software to burn a disk and then do something else
-CD $500
1000 CD-R

Total $588

Now you tell me how a musician can offer a better deal than a pirate.

I kind of get what you're saying about software, but you can definitely make music for cheaper then that. The thing people get wrong about piracy is that they think most pirates would never pay for stuff when in reality they totally would if it was priced right. Through my school's discount I purchased windows vista, a copy of XP, and 2007 Microsoft office suite for 30 bucks each. That was priced about right in my opinion and I gladly shelled out the money. As far as music and movies go, I think a lossless digital copy of any CD should be able to be downloaded for about 3 or 4 bucks and a full HD copy of a movie should go for about 6 or 7. Then I would have no problem purchasing stuff. The problem is that there is a huge discrepancy between what record, movie, and software companies think stuff should be sold for and what consumers do, and piracy is just leveling the playing field.

Erock

[Trezker]

I don't mind artists restricting access to their work. If you don't want everyone to hear your music then I respect that, or at least I try. I'm still a little half-assed about this.

What troubles me is the means that the media industry is trying to use to enforce their interests. A lot of what they do is unacceptable. Even worse is that they manage to convince governments to even forget about human rights just to sustain their old outdated business models.

But both the industry and pirates sabotage themselves a lot. The industry pisses people off and make them even more rebellious. It's a constant arms race and it's hurting the bystanders. Honest customers have to suffers through ever more crappy services, disrespect and anti-piracy messages while the pirates get all this crap removed and provides the services that should come from the industry directly.

At least I try to get my free stuff legally. I look for music on sites where artists themselves give it away for free and I use Linux, which is better than windows anyway...
My biggest problem is movies, I haven't found any good service in that area. The best so far is youtube and google tech talks...

[ar81]

I have a way to protest against music industry oligopoly: I make my own music. I only buy non commercial music from indie companies or indie authors. I buy used CDs.

[Rossoneri]

Originally Posted by Erock

I kind of get what you're saying about software, but you can definitely make music for cheaper then that. The thing people get wrong about piracy is that they think most pirates would never pay for stuff when in reality they totally would if it was priced right. Through my school's discount I purchased windows vista, a copy of XP, and 2007 Microsoft office suite for 30 bucks each. That was priced about right in my opinion and I gladly shelled out the money. As far as music and movies go, I think a lossless digital copy of any CD should be able to be downloaded for about 3 or 4 bucks and a full HD copy of a movie should go for about 6 or 7. Then I would have no problem purchasing stuff. The problem is that there is a huge discrepancy between what record, movie, and software companies think stuff should be sold for and what consumers do, and piracy is just leveling the playing field.

Erock

I totally agree with that.