Morality....values?

[coLLege kid07]

Hey everyone.

Recently I've found it to be really hard to discern right and wrong. For some reason I feel a whole or emptiness and some of my values seem to have left or dissapeared. I'm not really sure why this is. I've been going through a lot of emotional turmoil recently..but nevertheless I've surrendered and accepted it. Still though I'm not sure what happened to my values....

If anyone could offer some advice it'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Jarrod]

You will need to give examples of where you can't discern between right and wrong so we can see which viewpoint you are using.

[ns123]

Maybe it's not that you cannot tell between right and wrong, it may be that you CAN, you just don't trust yourself.

It sounds as if you are going through an exploratory phase and trying to discern what your beliefs are - and are open to the idea of dropping old beliefs. Which is actually good.

It's good that you are willing to be open and self introspective. That is the first step in "awakening" that you try to discern what your values actually are by examining them one by one. It's bad because while you are trying to "find yourself" you feel as if you are a bit lost.

My advice is, stop trying to figure things out. Just make a statement and see how it feels to you. If it resonates. See how you react.

A life coach may be able to help you. But it sounds like you are subconsciously suffering from some deep seated limiting belief. I can't really help you identify what this belief is, but it sounds like you have a lot of self doubt.

This feeling will not last forever. It's just what you feel now, on your path to growth.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

Hey everyone.

Recently I've found it to be really hard to discern right and wrong. For some reason I feel a whole or emptiness and some of my values seem to have left or dissapeared. I'm not really sure why this is. I've been going through a lot of emotional turmoil recently..but nevertheless I've surrendered and accepted it. Still though I'm not sure what happened to my values....

If anyone could offer some advice it'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Great answers from ns123 and Jarrod. My question is: is it true that there is a right and a wrong to discern between in the first place?

[ns123]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

My question is: is it true that there is a right and a wrong to discern between in the first place?

I had to laugh at this. I just find it humorous. I don't think I'm quite eloquent enough in words to answer this question, but I will gander a try.

Take this example:

Physical violence is wrong. Right? Everybody knows that. I know that, I would never allow someone to be physically violent to me. Ever.
But...
There are people who are into S&M. Is that physical violence? What about people who like to be spanked? Is that violence?
So.. how do I discern between the good violence and the bad violence? Is violence right or wrong?

My feelings act as a kind of compass. I can't prove it's a good or a bad violence to anyone. But being spanked is fun, feels good. Getting punched in the face is not.

So is the same with beliefs. If the belief has a positive effect, if it feels right, it's right. If it feels wrong, it's wrong. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about discernment between what's right and what's wrong. It's not really right and wrong as in black or white. But how you feel about it.

I'm not going down the path of evil/good is just a matter of perspective here. I do believe that positive and negative things exist, but they are not always positive or negative forever. Some negatives change into positives and vice versa. Such is the nature of being - things can change, and often do.

In the end, the only thing that endures is Love.

[Dharma]

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by ns123

I had to laugh at this. I just find it humorous...

Well I'm certainly pleased I could provide you with a good laugh!

In the end, the only thing that endures is Love.

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." I Corinthians 13:13. I'm not a Christian anymore, but I still love this! I love what you said about love as well! Isn't it a marvelous thing?

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Dharma

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare

Nobody says it quite like the Bard of Avon!

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Ecce Homo

Great answers from ns123 and Jarrod. My question is: is it true that there is a right and a wrong to discern between in the first place?

I think the proverbial "moral compass" is drawn to something. I think that something is whatever is respectful of others. The example of spanking was mentioned. Not my personal cup of tea, but spanking that's requested and willingly given is respectful of the both people and isn't the same as violence. Violence is "violation of boundaries".

Respect of course needs defining. I knew someone once for whom "respect" was "what makes me feel respected". That sounds good but isn't really true. That's just a fancy of way of saying "respect is whatever I say it is". If you feel unworthy you'll never feel respected no matter how you are treated and that is an issue you have to resolve internally. However, assuming a person doesn't have such issues and is clear on what their boundaries are and communicates them clearly and lovingly, then respecting those boundaries is respecting the person.

--Bob

[robertanthony]

Feeling Your Values: Free online tool to identify values ... ( Welcome to the Value Sorter ) helps people identify their values

All About Emotional Intelligence - Training and Tools for Business, Education, Personal Growth, Parenting, and Government

Emotional turmoil has left you FEELING EMPTY. The above site has a value sorter which gives you feedback on how YOUR life reflects YOUR values.

[inquiringmind4u]

Originally Posted by coLLege kid07

For some reason I feel a whole or emptiness and some of my values seem to have left or dissapeared. I'm not really sure why this is. I've been going through a lot of emotional turmoil recently..but nevertheless I've surrendered and accepted it. Still though I'm not sure what happened to my values....

If anyone could offer some advice it'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Hi college kid07,

You know, I think you've asked one of the quintessential questions of the ages... a question that very few people ever face... or for that matter, are ever willing to formulate in their minds.

I can tell you one thing about your experience for sure: You need never fear those moments when the floor seems to drop out from beneath your life and you find yourself feeling absolutely directionless... without purpose... without meaning. The truth is, everyone you know has this happen to him / her on a daily basis.... in countless ways. It happens in big ways, and it happens in small ways.

The problem is, when this happens to us, we inevitably do the wrong thing. And what's the wrong thing? We answer it from ourselves! We come up with a new purpose, a new meaning, a new pursuit.... or, on the other hand, we come up with an explanation for how we're feeling.... we blame, accuse, find reasons -- in short, we find some way to explain how we're feeling.

If a person were willing to just sit in that emptiness, and not do one thing to resolve it, he would discover there is a purpose behind it.

See, in a very literal sense, our lives are not our own. We are being lived by something. Even though there are billions on this planet who would tell you that you make your life what it is, the truth of the matter is that the human being is much more like a vessel than he is a controller or director. There are times when Life naturally fills the vessel, and there are times when the vessel is emptied. Experiment with this. Let yourself be emptied if that is what Life wants and remain right there without the slightest concern for how it is to be re-filled.

If you'll work with this, what you'll find is that Life will fill you with a new understanding of what it means to be emptied.... and the purpose behind it.

Tim

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by inquiringmind4u

Hi college kid07,
If a person were willing to just sit in that emptiness, and not do one thing to resolve it, he would discover there is a purpose behind it.

The average person can't stand to routinely function without a radio or iPod pumping non-silence into their brain. God forbid that we have any silence in our lives. We might have to face what we are thinking or feelng (or not). Can't have that.

One of the insights I got from experiences of "emptiness" like this is that I'm not obligated to have a purpose or to do anything. If I feel a lack of inspiration, I sit with that until I do.

People are always asking, "what are you passionate about?" as if passion (whatever exactly that is) is some kind of central virtue. As if everything is supposed to be compelling. The end result is that most of us go around pretending we're passionate, instead of being truly passionate in those moments of inspiration that occasionally come.

The human psyche is not designed to sustain constant mental, spiritual or emotional highs. That's why they're called "highs". If you were always high, that would become your new normal and life would be bland anyway.

As LeBruyere dryly said, "Life is something to do when you can't get to sleep". Don't make it into something it's not. Don't flatter yourself that you are going to Change the World (tm) or Make a Difference (tm). You might, or you might not, but the important this is to simply be, and to be authentic in your being, whether or not it's glamorous or game-changing in your eyes or anyone else's.

So let go of the performance anxiety and follow Tim's advice. It's good advice.

--Bob

[ns123]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

The human psyche is not designed to sustain constant mental, spiritual or emotional highs. That's why they're called "highs". If you were always high, that would become your new normal and life would be bland anyway.

I'm sorry to be disagreeable, but I disagree. I don't believe that to see white, you need to see black. I don't agree that to experience high, you must experience low (or neutral).

I think it's possible to always be high, to always be passionate if I choose to be.

I also recognize that because I feel I'm generating love and spiritual highs all the time, you may disagree. And that's ok and I accept that. There is no way for me to concretely prove I'm always high, and no way for you to prove I'm concretely not.

So in the mean time, I will believe what I believe and continue to generate love and spiritual highs - and also send some to you.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by ns123

I'm sorry to be disagreeable, but I disagree. I don't believe that to see white, you need to see black. I don't agree that to experience high, you must experience low (or neutral).

I think it's possible to always be high, to always be passionate if I choose to be.

I don't think that you have to see black to see white, but it is relatively non-intuitive to fully appreciate white as something of value except in contrast to black. If all you ever had is white, it's not that it wouldn't register, but you would, understandably, have a strong tendency to take it for granted.

You have no doubt learned, through mindfulness and gratitude practice, to value white even if you've never known black. Nothing wrong with that.

If your neurochemistry and personality are favorable to it and you are committed, I suppose that one could exist in a blissful state by default. Depending on how you define things, there are people who would allege that I do this because I am a very serene, laid back person, and to an anxious or fretful personality I must seem very blissful. Compared to you, perhaps I would not.

My own particular weakness is caring too much and trying too hard. Trying to make the mundane into the transcendent when it doesn't want to be and, in fact, really needn't be. Then becoming frustrated when everything isn't all exceptional sweetness and light. In the world I live in, that kind of idealism leads to disillusionment and, ultimately, madness. Your mileage may vary, etc. I have to accept that I am not as easily amused as most people and therefore have much higher "wow" threshold which in general takes more effort to attain than it's worth to me.

As a friend crudely but accurately but it, "there's nothing as over-rated as a good ♥♥♥♥ and nothing as under-rated as a good ♥♥♥♥". I have personally found more happiness overall by learning to appreciate the ordinary and by ejecting the illusion that the ordinary is not enough or not acceptable. But this is my discipline, not yours. Everyone's different.

--Bob

[ns123]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I have personally found more happiness overall by learning to appreciate the ordinary and by ejecting the illusion that the ordinary is not enough or not acceptable.

I think you've put into words more eloquently than I, the idea that I was trying to convey.

So by practicing what you wrote above, does this mean that you are not always transcendant? Labels are funny this way. I would say yes, you would say no. But I think we are saying the same things and we actually agree.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by ns123

I think you've put into words more eloquently than I, the idea that I was trying to convey.

So by practicing what you wrote above, does this mean that you are not always transcendant? Labels are funny this way. I would say yes, you would say no. But I think we are saying the same things and we actually agree.

Yes, words are slippery critters. To a lot of people, and I'm one of those people, "transcendence" conjures up celestial choirs and radiant light and orgasmic delight. Or on a less prosaic level, it makes me feel obligated to go around 24 hours a day with a ♥♥♥♥ eating grin on my face. I have very, very seldom found the present moment that compelling, and on the rare times that I have, I was happily strolling over a cliff that I would have done much better to have noticed.

Real transcendence is not generally glamorous. Sometimes it's downright dull compared to what people seem to want it to be. I think we do people a disservice and turn spirituality into hucksterism when we promise an end to all your worries and fears and make you sparkle with effortless joy. I have a sore spot about this because it's a major feature of the religious background I came out of, and it did a really lousy job of setting my expectations of life.

So yes, I think we agree, we just come at it from somewhat different angles. I consider it a victory to get up in the morning and enjoy the sunshine on my face and look forward to the day, and to be content with that. I wouldn't call that "being high", or "being passionate". But I think it's pretty kick-ass in its own quiet way.

--Bob

[ns123]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

YTo a lot of people, and I'm one of those people, "transcendence" conjures up celestial choirs and radiant light and orgasmic delight. Or on a less prosaic level, it makes me feel obligated to go around 24 hours a day with a ♥♥♥♥ eating grin on my face.

You totally make me crack up! This is too hilarious!

Just for you saying this, I'm going to manifest for you a celestial like choir with radiant light. If you run into this sometime in the future, I hope it gives you **** eating grin on your face!

You make me laugh! Thanks for that!

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by ns123

You totally make me crack up! This is too hilarious!

Just for you saying this, I'm going to manifest for you a celestial like choir with radiant light. If you run into this sometime in the future, I hope it gives you **** eating grin on your face!

You make me laugh! Thanks for that!

Damn, you left out the orgasmic delight. ;-)

--Bob

[ar81]

I use a simple rule for good and bad.
Good things make everyone happier.
Bad things harm people in one way or another.
A medicine that could heal someone, could harm another.

[12345]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I think we do people a disservice and turn spirituality into hucksterism when we promise an end to all your worries and fears and make you sparkle with effortless joy. I have a sore spot about this because it's a major feature of the religious background I came out of, and it did a really lousy job of setting my expectations of life.

From what I understand from your previous posts, you have a Christian background. I am not aware of any Christian teachings that, as you say, “promise an end to all your worries and fears and make you sparkle with effortless joy”. For me, Christianity has not at all been the instant solution to any problem in this life, but instead the only way to find the strength, courage, and knowledge to *deal with* whatever hardship comes my way. I would feel really cheated by God if I were the only person in the world who had problems, but I know I’m not. The bible says it rains on the just and the unjust, and I take comfort in that thought.

I realize that Christianity indeed has the tendency to portray its followers as ridiculously happy and overzealous (lol, Ned Flanders and the whole Flanders clan of “The Simpsons” comes to mind when I think of people who fall into this category). I think what’s really happening, however, is a whole other scenario when you encounter Christians in everyday life. It’s not that Christians are genuinely happy and worry-free--it’s that they have found a comfort in relying on Christianity to help them in trying times. I believe this is real transcendence—and it’s certainly not what people want it to be. I have found no “glamor” in suffering, but I do believe I have been able to transcend my problems in focusing on heaven and everything that I truly believe awaits me. I like to compare it to a woman who is about to give birth—she finds the strength to carry out her breathing exercises and pushing and to endure the excruciating pain all because she knows the miracle that awaits her.

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

I don't think that you have to see black to see white, but it is relatively non-intuitive to fully appreciate white as something of value except in contrast to black. If all you ever had is white, it's not that it wouldn't register, but you would, understandably, have a strong tendency to take it for granted.

I have always thought that this may be part of the purpose of our earthly lives—to be able to really appreciate heaven once we get there. I still wonder why suffering has to be so extreme, but maybe part of it could be that we’d all be like spoiled little rich kids in eternity if we hadn’t mopped the floors and cleaned the toilets down here on earth. Somehow, someway, no matter how intense the suffering, I still choose to believe it ultimately makes us more Christ-like and thus more prepared to inherit His kingdom.

God bless to all.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by 12345

From what I understand from your previous posts, you have a Christian background. I am not aware of any Christian teachings that, as you say, “promise an end to all your worries and fears and make you sparkle with effortless joy”.

Christianity is Big. There are Christian backgrounds, and then there are Christian backgrounds. My particular background was an insular and conservative flavor of evangelical protestantism, the closest analogue that most readers would likely be at all acquainted with being the northern persuasion of Baptist.

In fairness I would have to say that many teachers in my tradition would deny promoting Christianity as an easy path or as a panacea for personal problems. However, while carefully hedged, the pitch was everywhere -- in a catch-phrase, "Jesus is the answer". He's pitched to the lonely and fearful as a means of getting one's ♥♥♥♥ together. There is a sense that "real" Christians are confident and happy and doubt free, with a clear understanding of God's will and therefore a clear life purpose and by implication, a clear path to fulfillment. No one speaks of sacrifice, dark nights of the soul, or struggle to the "unchurched". In my spiritual community, to the extent these things were mentioned to the "believers", they were portrayed as passing problems and no big deal. If you were not a good bubbly Christian for any length of time, eyebrows were raised and your authenticity was definitely in question.

In my youthful hubris I considered myself smugly fortunate that I had not lived a life of dissipation and had from childhood known and willingly accepted what I considered a knowledge of the truth.

Arrogant little twit that I was, I certainly got taken down a few pegs!

The canonical example for me was a ditty called Life is a Symphony, popular in our circles, that included these choice words:

Life is a symphony
Since the Man of Galilee
Changed my discords into song
Made life sweet the whole day long

This subtext that your day to day problems are over when you "accept Christ" was very pervasive and even though I didn't really expect a problem-free life I could not help but expect a tragedy free life, with some sense that god, if he didn't exactly care what I ate for breakfast, was at least orchestrating the broad strokes of my life and keeping his "favored son" out of huge trouble. Alas, more than thirty years on, I have seen no real evidence for that idea and a great deal against it. And I took on challenges I would never, ever, in a million years, have even considered if I had known I or my loved ones were going to be left high and dry in our hour of greatest need. There were other issues, too; for example I remained in a bad marriage for 15 years without enough self respect to pull the plug because of a mindless divorce taboo. It took my 14 year old daughter begging me to save her sanity, to finally break with my first wife. A nice Christian girl, by the way.

My life experience has not been that of what I think of as "the god of Billy Graham". More like the god of Spinoza. Spinoza's god -- a god who neither loves nor hates us, but is indifferent to us, to the point that he is indistinguishable from nature itself -- is a god I can deal with -- a god who owes me nothing. The other one, I would be forced to brand a sadist and a liar. My current path is the one I have chosen so that I will not end up a bitter old man. Perhaps just a slightly annoyed and disappointed old man.

I realize that some Christian traditions are more balanced, and that I have some responsibility for what I uncritically chose to take away from my tradition. But I don't think I'm terribly unique in pretty much taking the mentors and authorities I was provided with at face value and then running into brick walls. I wasted a lot of my life doing that and only now do I feel like I'm fully getting a grip on reality such that I'm not constantly surprised and dismayed at the vicissitudes of life.

For those who have had a more satisfactory experience in that faith, more power to you, but it's been a pervasive and damaging poison for me.

--Bob

[JMan]

Originally Posted by SonoranBob

Christianity is Big. There are Christian backgrounds, and then there are Christian backgrounds. My particular background was an insular and conservative flavor of evangelical protestantism, the closest analogue that most readers would likely be at all acquainted with being the northern persuasion of Baptist.

In fairness I would have to say that many teachers in my tradition would deny promoting Christianity as an easy path or as a panacea for personal problems. However, while carefully hedged, the pitch was everywhere -- in a catch-phrase, "Jesus is the answer". He's pitched to the lonely and fearful as a means of getting one's ♥♥♥♥ together. There is a sense that "real" Christians are confident and happy and doubt free, with a clear understanding of God's will and therefore a clear life purpose and by implication, a clear path to fulfillment. No one speaks of sacrifice, dark nights of the soul, or struggle to the "unchurched". In my spiritual community, to the extent these things were mentioned to the "believers", they were portrayed as passing problems and no big deal. If you were not a good bubbly Christian for any length of time, eyebrows were raised and your authenticity was definitely in question.

In my youthful hubris I considered myself smugly fortunate that I had not lived a life of dissipation and had from childhood known and willingly accepted what I considered a knowledge of the truth.

Arrogant little twit that I was, I certainly got taken down a few pegs!

The canonical example for me was a ditty called Life is a Symphony, popular in our circles, that included these choice words:

Life is a symphony
Since the Man of Galilee
Changed my discords into song
Made life sweet the whole day long

This subtext that your day to day problems are over when you "accept Christ" was very pervasive and even though I didn't really expect a problem-free life I could not help but expect a tragedy free life, with some sense that god, if he didn't exactly care what I ate for breakfast, was at least orchestrating the broad strokes of my life and keeping his "favored son" out of huge trouble. Alas, more than thirty years on, I have seen no real evidence for that idea and a great deal against it. And I took on challenges I would never, ever, in a million years, have even considered if I had known I or my loved ones were going to be left high and dry in our hour of greatest need. There were other issues, too; for example I remained in a bad marriage for 15 years without enough self respect to pull the plug because of a mindless divorce taboo. It took my 14 year old daughter begging me to save her sanity, to finally break with my first wife. A nice Christian girl, by the way.

My life experience has not been that of what I think of as "the god of Billy Graham". More like the god of Spinoza. Spinoza's god -- a god who neither loves nor hates us, but is indifferent to us, to the point that he is indistinguishable from nature itself -- is a god I can deal with -- a god who owes me nothing. The other one, I would be forced to brand a sadist and a liar. My current path is the one I have chosen so that I will not end up a bitter old man. Perhaps just a slightly annoyed and disappointed old man.

I realize that some Christian traditions are more balanced, and that I have some responsibility for what I uncritically chose to take away from my tradition. But I don't think I'm terribly unique in pretty much taking the mentors and authorities I was provided with at face value and then running into brick walls. I wasted a lot of my life doing that and only now do I feel like I'm fully getting a grip on reality such that I'm not constantly surprised and dismayed at the vicissitudes of life.

For those who have had a more satisfactory experience in that faith, more power to you, but it's been a pervasive and damaging poison for me.

--Bob

You must relate with Job, with all the trials and criticisms. What God allowed him to go through, just to prove him faithful was horrific by human standards.

[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by JMan

You must relate with Job, with all the trials and criticisms. What God allowed him to go through, just to prove him faithful was horrific by human standards.

The moral of that story wasn't that Job was "faithful", but that he was arrogant. You know, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world, hotshot?". This is why I don't presume to judge god (or assume anything about him anymore, including his existence in any form approved by Christianity). God isn't my cosmic candy machine and emergency backup system, as I was taught by example and even, at times, precept.

Understanding as I now do that I'm pretty much on my own, I'm a lot less flip about what I take on. I have learned to live within my scope. And, lo and behold, my life is a heck of a lot more tranquil.

--Bob