Would you support other people's unhealthy habits?

[Rose of Cairo]

This is an ethical question I'm thinking about at the moment. Let's say someone you care about has a habit that you personally find unhealthy or harmful in some way. For instance, I personally find smoking or eating cooked foods unhealthy and harmful. Now, you know this person would be glad if you did some action X, but doing X supports their habit (like cooking something for them, or going to buy cigarettes for them because they are tired). Let's also assume the action itself is not ethically a problem for you (cooking vegan dishes is not an ethical problem in itself for me, or let's assume you would go buy cigarettes with their own money, so it's not your money that you give the tobacco industry).

Now my question is: would you do it?

I'm having a hard time deciding.

Possibility one: I say "this habit is unhealthy and harms them. They are free to do it, I respect their choice but I don't want to help them harming themselves because I love them. I don't want to have anything to do with it, so I won't support it in any way" => I don't do X, and show my love for them in some other way.

Possibility two: I say "They have free will and it's their choice to do it, this is none of my business. Their health is none of my business either, even if in my opinion they're harming themselves. I respect their choice, and since they chose to do it anyway and since they would be happy if I did X, I'll do it because I love them and I'm happy when they're happy." => I do X as a gift for them.

What do you think?

I guess it's a matter of values? But I'm having a hard time defining which values are relevant in these two cases.

[carenkh]

I believe I can't know what's best for another person, so I'd support their habit (somewhat) if they asked for help like that above. Unless they were my child, I wouldn't take responsibility for their habit, i.e., buy my mom's cigarettes for her from my own pocket all the time. But I cook meat for my youngest son; I buy my oldest junky snacks if he wants.

For me, the world and life are much much larger than my own beliefs and prejudices - I want to meet people in that larger space, if that makes sense.

[Kaspian]

I would choose to avoid supporting their habit. I would not buy cigarettes or things I don't consider to be food (twinkies, liquid cheese in a can, sugar & flavor chemicals on a stick, or other highly processed non-food junk).

On the other hand, I'd have no issue adding cheese to something I'm fixing for a family member who loves cheese even though I have chosen to stop eating dairy because I don't like the effect it has on my body. Perhaps this is because I have no moral objection to dairy, and I'm not convinced that it's universally bad. Within the category of organic, whole (or minimally processed) foods, I think what works from person to person varies.

[Remiel]

I won't directly buy things that I consider harmful, such as cigarettes. I will buy things that aren't great but aren't that bad either, coffee or coke for example. I will also create things that have a potential for abuse. I'm currently developing video games. And as we've seen with video games there are people willing to die over them. Does this make games bad? No. Its just like someone eating too much food and becoming obese. Food itself isn't bad.

So my answer is "It depends".

[The Cloud]

I went through exactly the same moral crisis a while back, and it resulted in me doing some things that I would rather not talk about. I'll just say that if you take the philosophy as an ideal (that is, to its extreme), it can become very harmful. It did teach me something, though. The things you are talking about aren't really support, just convenience. It is highly unlikely that any effort on your part to not support their habit will have even the slightest positive effect. If somebody is willing to pay $7 for a pack of cigarettes, then you can bet they'll walk to the ends of the earth to get them, figuratively speaking. The best you can hope to accomplish by withdrawing your "support" is to get them to hide their habit from you. The likelihood of it leading to a personal revelation is virtually nil.

Of course, it's not about them, is it? It's about whether you are ethically obligated to withdraw your support of their destruction. But, if withdrawing your support won't change anything, then was your support really support in the first place? Not really. So while on the surface this seems like a good thing to do, ethically speaking, it can end with some messed-up situations without actually helping anybody.

[Elrond]

Get as least involved in their business as possible. Me thinking that I know what's better for another is the first sign of arrogance.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

This is an ethical question I'm thinking about at the moment. Let's say someone you care about has a habit that you personally find unhealthy or harmful in some way. For instance, I personally find smoking or eating cooked foods unhealthy and harmful. Now, you know this person would be glad if you did some action X, but doing X supports their habit (like cooking something for them, or going to buy cigarettes for them because they are tired). Let's also assume the action itself is not ethically a problem for you (cooking vegan dishes is not an ethical problem in itself for me, or let's assume you would go buy cigarettes with their own money, so it's not your money that you give the tobacco industry).

Now my question is: would you do it?

Heck no.

That's a great way to fall out of alignment with truth, love, and power all at once.

If that's your goal, then you have an effective strategy.

More seriously, I recommend you apply the principle of truth and love and fire that relationship from your life. Yesterday I heard it saying bad things about you behind your back.

("Serious": a word not in Bruce's vocabulary.)

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

This is an ethical question I'm thinking about at the moment. Let's say someone you care about has a habit that you personally find unhealthy or harmful in some way. For instance, I personally find smoking or eating cooked foods unhealthy and harmful. Now, you know this person would be glad if you did some action X, but doing X supports their habit (like cooking something for them, or going to buy cigarettes for them because they are tired). Let's also assume the action itself is not ethically a problem for you (cooking vegan dishes is not an ethical problem in itself for me, or let's assume you would go buy cigarettes with their own money, so it's not your money that you give the tobacco industry).

Now my question is: would you do it?

The *real* question is: is this the sort of example you want to set for others?

Answer truthfully, and see how it feels. Acknowledge that feeling and act accordingly.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

The *real* question is: is this the sort of example you want to set for others?

What is your question about? The habit itself, or supporting it in some way?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

More seriously, I recommend you apply the principle of truth and love and fire that relationship from your life. Yesterday I heard it saying bad things about you behind your back.

You're suggesting that I fire everybody from my life who does something I personally find unhealthy??

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Elrond

Get as least involved in their business as possible. Me thinking that I know what's better for another is the first sign of arrogance.

Define what getting involved in their business means. If I provide drugs for someone in some way, isn't that getting involved in their business too?

[Dan.Linehan]

Tough question Rose. One of the big ones in life really.

My advice is to only offer advice if someone asks for it, directly or indirectly. Otherwise you are not respecting the other person's free will, and therefore falling out of alignment with truth.

[Dan.Linehan]

Education, not control.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

It is highly unlikely that any effort on your part to not support their habit will have even the slightest positive effect.

Not supporting the habit would NOT be with the goal of making them change this habit in any way. I'm fine with their choice and respect it. It doesn't bug me. The question is only, do I actively participate in this or not?

If somebody is willing to pay $7 for a pack of cigarettes, then you can bet they'll walk to the ends of the earth to get them, figuratively speaking.

That's true, me providing the drug or not won't change anything about them. But it makes a huge difference for me.

The best you can hope to accomplish by withdrawing your "support" is to get them to hide their habit from you.

I'm not sure about that. I think it depends on how I say it. If I say "this is bad and you shouldn't do it! and I won't help you!", they probably won't feel very free indeed. But maybe there's a loving way to say it that lets them feel free and respected in their choice? I know I can very well happily talk with someone who's smoking a cigarette, without disapproving them. Buying cigarettes for them (even with their own money) is an entirely different thing though.

The likelihood of it leading to a personal revelation is virtually nil.

Of course, you're right, but their personal revelation is not my goal. I just want to do what feels right for me.

Of course, it's not about them, is it? It's about whether you are ethically obligated to withdraw your support of their destruction.

I want to make a conscious choice about my behavior in such situations, according to my values. I'm not clear about which reaction would be more aligned with my values and why. If I do X, I have a bad gut feeling, as if I lacked integrity, but I cannot explain why. But if I don't do it, I worry that maybe I'm implying that they are wrong for doing what they do, and that's something I don't think.

But, if withdrawing your support won't change anything, then was your support really support in the first place? Not really.

That's true. Support was no good word. I mean more something like "actively taking part in it". It's not really support when I cook a yummy dish for someone, but it's actively taking part in his eating cooked foods.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I'm not clear about which reaction would be more aligned with my values and why. If I do X, I have a bad gut feeling, as if I lacked integrity, but I cannot explain why. But if I don't do it, I worry that maybe I'm implying that they are wrong for doing what they do, and that's something I don't think.

For me, saying, "I get a bad gut feeling when I buy cigarettes, so I choose not to do that" would work. It's not about them, their choices, or anything. It's the act of doing what they're asking you to do.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

My advice is to only offer advice if someone asks for it, directly or indirectly. Otherwise you are not respecting the other person's free will, and therefore falling out of alignment with truth.

My question is not about giving advice (I wouldn't do that without being asked), it's about doing concrete actions. Like I'm going to the gas station anyway, and someone gives me a few bucks and asks me to buy cigarettes for him. Would I do it? Or, would I cook a yummy (vegan) dish for a friend, when I know they would be happy about it? Such things you know...

If I don't do it, am I failing to respect the other person's free will? After all they decided to do it and that's their right, who am I to interfere? On the other side, I really have a huge resistance towards doing it.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I believe I can't know what's best for another person, (...) I want to meet people in that larger space, if that makes sense.

Yes it does. I can very well understand that. Maybe taking part in their habits is more open minded?

Originally Posted by carenkh

For me, saying, "I get a bad gut feeling when I buy cigarettes, so I choose not to do that" would work. It's not about them, their choices, or anything. It's the act of doing what they're asking you to do.

I'd like my decision to be conscious, universal and based on some concrete values. It makes it much easier.

I mean, where do you draw the line? If someone told you "here's money, would you please go buy some heroin for me?" would you do it? And if it was cigarettes? It wouldn't be the same? Why?

Remiel bases his decision on how harmful he personally thinks the substance is. That's one possibility. I'd like to clearly know what my criterion is, and where I draw the line.

[Lanya]

You can just make a habit of saying "no" and see what happens (i.e. how you feel) as a result. See if just doing it will grant you more insights. Maybe this conflict is connected to a limiting belief?

[Honeywith4bees]

Where you draw the line might be if it involves breaking the law. I know my 16 year old smokes cigarettes. I wish he wouldn't and I would not buy them for him (where I live you have to be 18 to buy tobacco). I let him know that I wish he valued his body enough not to smoke, but as I'm learning, I can't MAKE him do what I think is the right thing.
You refusing to cook food because you feel like raw is healthier kind of reminds me of your Mom serving you a smaller piece of cake because she thinks that that is healthier.

Love,

[Angela]

I grant everyone the freedom to smoke if they choose to, and I don't think anyone who knows me would ask me to buy them cigarettes. If someone did ask, my response would be something along the lines of "Are you f***ing kidding me?!? There's no way in hell I'm ever going to buy cigarettes." I would allow my horror, revulsion and disdain to appear in glorious technicolor. And if they're lucky, they might escape before they have to hear me describe my dad's hideous, agonizing death of lung cancer.

Is that the way you feel about cooked food?

[StellaBlue]

I think I would lean towards no since it is you doing the action. To me, that is not imposing beliefs or interfering with free will. My family won't ever come over to my house for dinner because I will not buy meat, cook meat, or store meat in my house. To do any thing other than that would go against my beliefs. They can do whatever they want in their own homes and with their own hands, but I don't want to take part in it. That is both ethical and out of concern for their own health. Sadly, their idea of healthy eating is not even slightly healthy.

Oh, and when I only ate raw, I didn't cook food for anyone either. I was more than happy to prepare anything raw for anyone though

My friends have never asked me to buy their cigarettes, and I do know a lot of people who smoke. I would probably tell them they could come with me and buy their own cigarettes if I was already going out. I don't think I would actively participate any further than that.

A few weeks ago I had a few friends staying the weekend at my house from out of town. They wanted to go get a bottle of alcohol and bring it back to the house. I told them absolutely not. I didn't want to bring that kind of energy into my house and I didn't want to facilitate people I care about doing something that I feel is unhealthy. They thought I was acting ridiculous... I guess that is even a step further than just not buying it for them, huh?

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I'd like my decision to be conscious, universal and based on some concrete values. It makes it much easier.

I mean, where do you draw the line? If someone told you "here's money, would you please go buy some heroin for me?" would you do it? And if it was cigarettes? It wouldn't be the same? Why?

Ah - I do it differently. It completely depends on the moment, the people I'm with, the situation, the substance... I tend to *not* come up with universal guidelines, I like things more fluid.

I bought cigarettes for my neighbor when she broke her ankle and couldn't walk to the store; I didn't buy cigarettes for my cousin when he was involved in something and I was going out. It depends on my gut feeling at the time.

Can't pin me down that way.

[Dan.Linehan]

I wouldn't want alcohol (or any other drugs) in my house.

I wouldn't want meat in there either. I definitely wouldn't want meat cooked in my house. I don't want your airborne prions.

I wouldn't want cigarette smoke inside my house either because the smell lingers. I do let a couple people smoke in my car infrequently because the smell doesn't seem to linger much.

I haven't bought cigarettes for anyone. Or alcohol. Or drugs. Or meat. No one has asked me to do any of those things though either. Would depend on case by case basis.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I bought cigarettes for my neighbor when she broke her ankle and couldn't walk to the store; I didn't buy cigarettes for my cousin when he was involved in something and I was going out. It depends on my gut feeling at the time.

Can't pin me down that way.

Same here -- case by case basis. I just realized that a couple friends have smoked pot in my car too.

In fact, I'd rather them do that than eat a burger. Pot smells better and it's less destructive.


/Honestly. I would complain way more about the burger.
//Generally pretty libertarian.

[Rose of Cairo]

@Caren: Hehe, yeah you're all intuitive and flexible

@Dan: As I understand it, you draw the line somewhere. Some things are really bad and others aren't that bad?

Btw, I'm gonna live with a cooked omni coffee and beer drinking pot and tobacco smoker soon, so I'll have all this in my house. I don't mind him doing all this, I just want to be clear in my head about how I will behave before he arrives.

Originally Posted by Angela

Is that the way you feel about cooked food?

Not exactly, I don't have such an emotional reaction to cooked foods, or cigarettes, or anything else. I just find it harmful and unhealthy.

It's not about exactly cooked food or cigarettes, I just took these as easy to describe examples. I'd like to make up my mind about this question once and for all habits that I find unhealthy. This way, in such a case, no matter what the situation or the substance is, I don't waste time and energy thinking about it. I'm lazy! I also want this decision to be applicable to extreme cases as well, without being different. For maximal laziness, er, efficiency and congruency

Like with animal products: I decided that for me personally, for many reasons, I don't want to eat animal products. Well. Now every time I'm confronted to food, it's very easy. I go through a simple algorithm: animal product? if no, the decision making process goes on. But if yes, I immediately know: no way. That's very easy. I waste no time and don't need to make a difference between a steak and a little bit of honey.

I'm sorry for your Dad Angela. Sending you love.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by StellaBlue

I think I would lean towards no since it is you doing the action. To me, that is not imposing beliefs or interfering with free will.

Yes, I think you're right. Now that I think of it, I'm not interfering with their free will. They're still free to cook their food themselves, go buy their cigarettes themselves, and so on. I'm not preventing them from having this habit in any way, I'm not pressuring them nor handcuffing them. I just don't play the game with them, that's all. Isn't that my free will?

I didn't want to bring that kind of energy into my house and I didn't want to facilitate people I care about doing something that I feel is unhealthy. They thought I was acting ridiculous... I guess that is even a step further than just not buying it for them, huh?

Yes it is. On the other hand, you're free to control what enters your house and what doesn't. You didn't prevent them from drinking it at their own place or on the street.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

I can't MAKE him do what I think is the right thing.

I repeat, my point is not making them do what I think is the right thing. I'm just trying to figure out what the right thing is for me.

You refusing to cook food because you feel like raw is healthier kind of reminds me of your Mom serving you a smaller piece of cake because she thinks that that is healthier.

I don't agree with this analogy. I let others free to eat as much cooked food as they want, or do any other drugs they want to do. I don't pressure anyone into being healthy like my mother pressures me into losing weight. If my mother ate no cake herself, let me totally free to eat as much cake as I want, but refused to serve me this cake, I'd be fine with that. That's something else I think. What she does is like smoking together with someone and at the same time telling him how bad he is for smoking and giving him only half cigarettes, "for his own good". That's definitely not my plan.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Lanya

You can just make a habit of saying "no" and see what happens (i.e. how you feel) as a result. See if just doing it will grant you more insights. Maybe this conflict is connected to a limiting belief?

Yes, I'm going to do this. I think I already know what I want to do deep down. My arguments against a no are based on fear: I'm afraid I might be implying something I don't mean, I'm afraid of being intolerant, I'm afraid of lacking openness, I'm afraid I might interfere with their free will... so they're unworthy of being listened to

There's a difference between doing something against their habit (I will certainly not do that), participating actively in their habit, and allowing them to have this habit without doing anything against it but without participating actively either. I think this last one is what I'm going to do.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Btw, I'm gonna live with a cooked omni coffee and beer drinking pot and tobacco smoker soon, so I'll have all this in my house.

[Angela]

I totally concur with Seeker5.

Jeesh, Rose, you never take the easy road when there's a rough one available, do you!