What's The Right Thing To Do?

[MattSuwak]

I was thrown into a very haphazard situation with my ex girlfriend, and I was hoping to see what some people think about it.

I'm 22 and she just turned 21 in June. We had been dating for about 2 and a half years before we started to fight a lot and break up for a week, get together for 2 and start the whole thing over again. It was a messy relationship, but I've learned what I DON'T want in the future, and I have some good memories and development from the whole thing.

About a month ago she told me she had an emergency and needed to talk to me. I decided to, and she told me she was pregnant. My heart jumped out of my body and did a little dance, and I asked who it was with; my former best friend. So it isn't mine. She was destroyed over it, saying how she wanted an abortion because she couldn't take care of the kid and wouldn't be able to give it up for adoption and all this and that. She got mad at me for not being able to see her every day to talk about it and kicked me out of her house. A week later I was kicked out for not buying her a pizza.

I understand the hormones, but if you can believe it, she was like this before all of this pregnancy stuff.

Well, about 3 weeks ago we started talking again because she really needed the help. I told her I'm perfectly happy living in the Yukon by myself, with my only neighbors being grizzlys and starvation, but I could put that off to spend some time with her.

(As a side note, I am joining the USAF to be a SERE Instructor, someone who teaches survival to air crew. They get all the coolest schools, like tracking, krav maga, mountaineering, oh it will be awesome.)

We talked and worked a few things out, and in the interest of doing the right thing I told her that when I leave for the AF, I could marry her, move her out there with me, and help take care of the kid if she wanted to keep it. That made her happy, except that it blew up in my face again because she wouldn't appreciate that. It wouldn't be acceptable for me to be gone one week every month in the wilderness, away from even a phone, let alone for my to take courses in Israel or Georgia (this SERE job is stationed mainly in Washington state).

She even tried holding it over me, that she'd be leaving her friends and family so I should do more for her. That's what got me angry.

I'd be giving up half of my dream for the Air Force to help completely support her so she could focus on school and the kid that isn't even mine. She tried to email me about staying together, that she was sorry, and I had to step away and acknowledge that she has said this a LOT before. Her and I are opposites- she's a night owl, I love mornings. She has a lot of friends she parties with, I have my cousin who I go into the woods with. I wear gym shorts and t-shirts, and for her a $40 dollar t-shirt is a bargain. The only thing that ever kept us together is that we really do love each other, as much as I've ever known. I'm still young, I know, but it's still there.

I know we aren't right for each other, I have known, I was trying to do the right thing though and put that aside. And that brings me to the topic of the thread.

What is the right thing to do? To stand up for my own dreams because I've given her so much in the past and it's never enough, and because you should never tell someone how to lead a happy life but instead inspire them by showing your own?

Or is the right thing to do in the interest of life, and accepting the responsibilites of a child that isn't even my own? Worse yet, with a person that has no sense of being grateful or respectful?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

I know we aren't right for each other

That's your answer.

The relationship sounds pretty dysfunctional. Love is wonderful, but love alone is not all you need to make a relationship work. At the age of 22, you would already be giving up your dream. I don't even know what my dream is at age 28, so I shudder to think of you doing this.

I would seriously look at what you'd be giving up in order to "save" her. As much as you may care about her that is not your job and would probably blow up in your face.

[Angela]

What!?!!?????? How in the world do you figure that marrying someone who is pregnant with another man's child, with whom you constantly fight, and who is completely uninterested in taking responsibility for her life --- is the RIGHT THING?

Okay, okay, maybe that's the right thing for you to do. It's just extremely difficult for me to get my head around that, but it may be true for you. Are you willing to live your life having made a choice that cuts you off from having a loving, long-term, mutually beneficial relationship, and also cutting her off from that possibility as well?

Just because you love someone, even a lot, that doesn't mean you belong together.

[MattSuwak]

The "right" side of things was for me to help somebody, in this case two somebodies and one of which wouldn't have a chance otherwise. As much as I dig Objectivism and as warm as I am to the Howard Roarks and John Galts out there, I can't help having a serious hero complex. I don't go out of my way to save people from their own problems, but if I can help then I'll do whatever I can.

This situation shows a girl whom I've loved and who loves me with a child that would be killed if I didn't intervene. That's why I feel so conflicted, should I save the day (again) or go on with my own life? I've basically made my decision but it still helps to get out...I haven't been able to talk to anybody about this because it's still a secret.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

If you want to help the baby, you could provide money since it seems that's the barrier to her having the child. However, I'm not even sure having a mother like that can be considered in the child's best interest. Do you really think she's mother material?

Being the hero is overrated. I'd look at your desire to "save" people. That's more about you than them if you are anything like me.

ETA: Taking on the role of provider and father to a child that is not your own whose mother you don't even get along with would seem to be going out of your way to me.

[mercuryrising]

Run as fast as you can away from this woman. There are several million women you are compatible with. Do not settle for some chick that would sleep with your best friend and get pregnant, then come running back to you because she knows she can manipulate you. This isn't your responsibility. Who cares what she thinks... be grateful it isn't yours.


Here's some advice a guy gave me recently on this forum that I think you would appreciate.

[MattSuwak]

You hit the nail on the head, there- if anybody knows how to get me talking or acting it's her. She's a manipulator and I never tried to hide much about myself.

You're correct on that Clarity, because as much as I do help people just because I feel it's the right thing to do, some times it is motivated out of guilt, which is what this decision was motivated from.

In the few other relationships I've been in when Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ (PB) and I have been apart, I've seen a lot of great stuff. Like, "Hey, I don't really want to head out today, just wanna play video games." And I get "Okay, have fun!" instead of "I'LL SWALLOW YOUR SOUL!".

I was taking responsibility for something that isn't my responsibility because it's been pushed into my head that that is how I should act. Thanks, people, for such good and solid replies! And I love your signature, mercuryrising!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

I can't help having a serious hero complex. I don't go out of my way to save people from their own problems, but if I can help then I'll do whatever I can.

I would say "won't" rather than "can't." In this situation, it seems to be that you really are going out of your way to save this woman and her baby from their "problems." But here's the thing -- partnering with someone in order to save them -- someone in whose life you are intervening (your word) -- is a sure path to utter, abject misery for everyone, even if you love them. A loving, long-term, mutually beneficial relationship (LLTMBR) partner is not someone who needs you to save them, a partner is someone who freely and joyfully enters into an agreement with you.

When you "save" someone, first of all, you're making them wrong, and making yourself right ("I am the answer to your problems, without me you are doomed"). Also, you would be complicit in an arrangement that is specifically set up so that this woman does not have to grow. Unspoken agreements like that get set up early on and they are very difficult to break! That's not doing them any favors. If you "save" this woman, you are cutting her off from the possibility of saving herself.

Here you are, getting ready to start this incredibly rich, powerful adventure in living your life. Don't you want a LLTMBR in which you are both loving your life?

It sounds like maybe you have some moral objection to the baby being aborted, and that's what has you thinking you need to do something about it?

[Angela]

One more thing, just a general rule of thumb... if you ever find yourself referring to someone by the name, "Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥," you are certainly not available for an LLTMBR with that person!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

In the few other relationships I've been in when Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ (PB) and I have been apart, I've seen a lot of great stuff.

While I am glad you are beginning to see this situation for what it is, might I point out that referring to someone as a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ is not conducive to any kind of relationship. As long as you allow yourself to see someone like that and use that label on women, I don't think you will advance too far in a truly loving relationship. Using terms like that betrays your true view of women. Of course that's my opinion, but it's based on evidence I've experienced firsthand.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

While I am glad you are beginning to see this situation for what it is, might I point out that referring to someone as a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ is not conducive to any kind of relationship. As long as you allow yourself to see someone like that and use that label on women, I don't think you will advance too far in a truly loving relationship. Using terms like that betrays your true view of women. Of course that's my opinion, but it's based on evidence I've experienced firsthand.

You have never thought of any man as an idiot or a pig?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Playlife

You have never thought of any man as an idiot or a pig?

No. I don't use name calling in my interactions with men or women. I find it degrading and useless.

Do you think that if you were in a relationship with someone who called you a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ that you could feel they have any respect for you at all? Don't you think that would demoralize you? I don't think it would induce you to become a better person, it would only feed and increase insecurity and doubt about how much the other person actually loves you.

Do you think it's okay to call a woman a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥, whether you are in a relationship with her or not?

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

No. I don't use name calling in my interactions with men or women. I find it degrading and useless.

Do you think that if you were in a relationship with someone who called you a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ that you could feel they have any respect for you at all? Don't you think that would demoralize you? I don't think it would induce you to become a better person, it would only feed and increase insecurity and doubt about how much the other person actually loves you.

Do you think it's okay to call a woman a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥, whether you are in a relationship with her or not?

No, I don't think so. It's just that for you, the problem seemed to be that he disrespected her as a woman, not as an individual person.

[MattSuwak]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

While I am glad you are beginning to see this situation for what it is, might I point out that referring to someone as a Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ is not conducive to any kind of relationship. As long as you allow yourself to see someone like that and use that label on women, I don't think you will advance too far in a truly loving relationship. Using terms like that betrays your true view of women. Of course that's my opinion, but it's based on evidence I've experienced firsthand.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think poorly of women. What I do believe is that there are some things guys are better at than women, and vice versa. But that PB thing is a movie reference, my friend and I used it, just like saying a nasty person is a Deadite. I think the PB was taken from Wayne's World when Wayne described his ex-girlfriend as a Pyscho Hose Beast, we just made it roll of the tongue a bit better.

Not defending myself, just making sure it was understood



I absolutely have a moral objection to the abortion. I don't get all hippy-dippy about it, but I do feel like a parent should at least give the child up for adoption instead of getting rid of it.

I'm always trying to help people, for reasons like I've given, and a lot of the time I've given up what makes me happy. Like when I was living in Utah but came home because my ex missed me, or buying somebody lunch if they needed it instead of eating myself, which was a common thing at work.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

I absolutely have a moral objection to the abortion. I don't get all hippy-dippy about it, but I do feel like a parent should at least give the child up for adoption instead of getting rid of it.

Yeah, I get that. You can't marry every woman to keep her from having an abortion. In fact, you can't marry any woman to keep her from having an abortion. She might just marry you and then have an abortion anyway. That would put you in a tight spot! It's just not your choice to make, and trying to make that choice for another person is a road to ruin.

I'm always trying to help people, for reasons like I've given, and a lot of the time I've given up what makes me happy. Like when I was living in Utah but came home because my ex missed me, or buying somebody lunch if they needed it instead of eating myself, which was a common thing at work.

Well, you've got to put your own oxygen mask on first. I can see where this Air Force thing is an expression of your commitment to making a difference in people's lives. My guess is that you've got some old pain -- a belief about yourself that is running you. (I can see it because I have it, too.)

[Holistic Star]

I definitely think you should marry her and raise her child and give up your dreams. She can walk all over you, go out partying all night, bled you dry (until someone better comes along obviously) which is what she likes to do.

You get to feel virtuous (because you saved her and the child right) so nothing you can do will be wrong because you'll be able to play the martyr card in any situation, I mean look at how much you gave up for her?

You'll argue incessently, the child will grow up in a battlefield without understanding what a loving and supportive relationship looks like and be emotionally stunted. You'll all be lonely. You'll all find separate self-destructive ways to numb your sorrows.

If that scenario doesn't strike chills into your heart then go for it! I mean what could possibly go wrong?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Playlife

No, I don't think so. It's just that for you, the problem seemed to be that he disrespected her as a woman, not as an individual person.

Both actually.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think poorly of women.

Just so you know, that's the way it appears when you use terms like that. And maybe there's some unexamined stuff behind it, or maybe not. Were I to go around calling guys Jerk Douchebags, I doubt I'd be considered an ally to men. It wouldn't be tolerated.

[MattSuwak]

I can't think of anything that really has affected me, though. I don't have any pain that bothers me or some memory that keeps me awake. I do remember that when I started high school, I would make friendships with people who needed it most. After a while, they grew on their own and wouldn't need me anymore, and we'd stop being friends slowly but surely. I've always accepted that, that I'm here to help the people who need it the most. It's happened with two girls who I really liked a lot.

Heh... maybe all these years of putting this descriptor on myself conditioned me into believing it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

Heh... maybe all these years of putting this descriptor on myself conditioned me into believing it.

Ya think?

What about when you were little? Did something happen with your parents or siblings, and you decided something about yourself that it was your job to help the underdog?

[MattSuwak]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Just so you know, that's the way it appears when you use terms like that. And maybe there's some unexamined stuff behind it, or maybe not. Were I to go around calling guys Jerk Douchebags, I doubt I'd be considered an ally to men. It wouldn't be tolerated.

Well, I could have said Psycho Person, but then the abbreviation would be PP.

*bad joke*

Anyway. Like I said, I have my own beliefs about men and women. None are limiting (women should raise children and men should bring home the beef). Everything is saying that in general, each sex tends to have their own strengths and weaknesses. My dad died when I was 5 and my brother was in and out for as long as I can remember. I've never had a real, solid male role model. I've lived with my mother and 2 or 3 sisters at any time.

I've got no deepseated emotional problems towards women or men, I don't have any hidden angst towards women for hurting me in the past. Calling guys Jerk Douchebags, well, I wouldn't say you hate or think less of men. I'd say you've had a few problems in the past and as a result, you look at things a little more negatively than other people. But I don't htink it's a reflection of your views on the entire male sex.

I guess I may be behind the times but I do use words and descriptors like that, but without any hidden and negative meaning.

[MattSuwak]

I just always liked the underdog. I was a little fatty growing up, had no self esteem, came from a poor family. When I decided to change and be a better person, I realized how easy it was. Pick up your head and stop being a wuss, you know?

I love being able to cheer people up even when they're miserable, and I'm good at it, usually. When I see people without self-respect, I try to help them out. I tell them to improve themselves 1% each day, because in a year they will be more than 3 and a half times better than when they started. I like being able to help people because I know from experience that after taking the initial step, it's easy.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

My dad died when I was 5 and my brother was in and out for as long as I can remember. I've never had a real, solid male role model. I've lived with my mother and 2 or 3 sisters at any time.

How about a belief that "I am the man of the family"? You think you might have some programming about how wrong it is for men to leave, and how "the right thing" is to stay and take care of the women folk?

Maybe I shouldn't have referred to it as "old pain" but rather, "old beliefs."

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Well, I don't think that I will be able to make you understand how hurtful that term is, with or without some deep hatred of women attached to it. I'll be on my way.

Good luck with everything.

ETA: One more thing, the idea that men should be breadwinners and women homemakers sound pretty limiting to me.

[MattSuwak]

Originally Posted by Angela

How about a belief that "I am the man of the family"? You think you might have some programming about how wrong it is for men to leave, and how "the right thing" is to stay and take care of the women folk?

Maybe I shouldn't have referred to it as "old pain" but rather, "old beliefs."

I acn see that. I can't remember having ever felt or thought that growing up, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. Even now, I take the old-school approach to things and say that women shouldn't have to work, that the man shoudl provide for them in a family. Is that sexist? lol

There's always been a clear cut approach to what is right or wrong. Why go through so much BS when everybody knows what is right by them, and what is wrong, even if it's hard to see. That's why this decision has been such a pain for me, because I want to be the big person and take care of her even while acknowledging that it's just dumb. Or looking at in the wonderful words Holistic Star used- I liked that!


And I didn't mean to offend, Clarity. It's a word I use a lot and I've never thought of it as anything other than a general insult. I thought we were just discussing the use and meaning of it, not that it was so offensive. Apologies

[JSB]

MattSuwak,

You love this woman, and it's admirable that you want to step up and help, but from everything else you written, she sounds incredibly self-centered, demanding, and inconsiderate of others (or at least inconsiderate of YOU and your needs).

If you give up on your own goals to help her, I think you will end up regretting it in the long run, and she may even end up resenting you for it.

Is there any way you could help her without sacrificing your own hopes and dreams?

Don't crucify yourself for her. (And don't give up on being a SERE Instructor; it sounds amazing!)

P.S. The term "Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥" may be an apt description for her, but the fact that you're using it doesn't make me think, "Wow, those two should really get married!"

[Angela]

Yeah, it sounds like you made a big decision about yourself, who you should be, and about right and wrong, when your dad died.

And now you have set up the perfect life situation for yourself so that you can work it through and create something new. If you don't learn your lesson this time, it will keep coming back over and over again until you do -- and the consequences tend to get more harsh each time.

What do you think you will do?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

And I didn't mean to offend, Clarity. It's a word I use a lot and I've never thought of it as anything other than a general insult. I thought we were just discussing the use and meaning of it, not that it was so offensive. Apologies

No apology needed for me. I guess I just bristle at both words becuase they have each been used intentionally for a long time to degrade women. I don't see many men calling other men Psycho Bitches. I can understand all your points and I don't intend to say that you are some horrible misogynist. But, yeah, it'd probably be a good thing to look at what the words you use can mean to other people. For most women I know that's pretty offensive, and it being funny to a lot is kind of troubling.

Just for the record, I don't think men are Jerk Douchebags at all .

And I'm glad you are here working on what's going on with you. I hope you will stick around.

[MattSuwak]

Originally Posted by JSB

P.S. The term "Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥" may be an apt description for her, but the fact that you're using it doesn't make me think, "Wow, those two should really get married!"

I'm happy that Psycho ♥♥♥♥♥ can be such an effective descriptor!


In reponse to both of you. Well, I already told her we aren't going to work so there's no effort in trying. I say "Potato" she says "Shut up and give me money". Seriously, though... I've decided that while I'm still young, I'm not getting any younger, and I can't keep putting my dreams on the back burner. If I want to really help people, I have to be in a position to actually do it.

She's getting rid of the baby, which is terrible, but I can't make up her mind for her. I have to start stepping outside of the situation and addressing it for what it really is, like I should do for a lot more in my life and in my future.

I think I've got it all squared away now, folks, thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it. I sure am glad that I found this forum when I did, and still can't really believe that there are so many good people on it.


clarity- I will definately be staying around, this forum is great. I understand your concern about the word losing it's meaning, even if I do call guys PBs haha. I feel that way for words like "wonderful", the original meaning of that should reserve it for the right occasions. Instead it's now just a synonym for "good".

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by MattSuwak

Even now, I take the old-school approach to things and say that women shouldn't have to work, that the man shoudl provide for them in a family. Is that sexist? lol

I think it's only sexist if you think it has to be that way for everyone. As a model for your own life, it's a perfectly good one and I have no doubt you will find a woman who agrees with you.

It sounds like you have some belief in your head, whether it was consciously decided or not, that you are responsible for other people, maybe particularly the women in your life. I think it's great to help others, but the idea that you can make them happy or anything else will most likely lead to a lot of pain. You can't make anyone else anything at all. I agree with JSB that in the long run you would probably regret and resent what you've done if you commit to helping her in this way. In addition, she would continue to use and abuse you and also grow resentful.

I struggle with the same desire to help people and doing things for others is a great thing. But you do need to tend to your own well-being first. And then help others out of the abundance of that, rather than out of some sense of duty. At least that's the way I see it working best.

ETA: I see you've worked it out. So see you around...