Terrorism and Islam

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by KevinG

Wow, you're going to say that 9/11 wasn't as it seemed? I have just exposed you for the fraud and the conspiracy theorist that you are. Congrats for walking into that one.

Do you know what loose change is???? Hahaha...you've been duped and it's sad watching you use this video to back up your points. What a lemming.

Yes Kevin. Sorry Kevin.

Everyone should worship America.
America has very honest government with no bad history.
Bush is a really nice guy with only good intentions.
The media isn't manipulative at all.
Everything they tell us must be true. Why would they lie?
All muslims are terrorist scum and should be shot. All of them bar none.
Islam is really evil and promotes killing innocent people. Evil evil Islam.
In fact anyone who isn't American should be shot.
Whatever America do is right and no one has the right to question it.
Those 200 people in Guantanamo Bay are all guilty and we should keep them caged like animals without charge. Who cares about human rights aren't we America?
America is totally impartial to the Israel-Palestine conflict. We do not support Israel's illegal occupation in any way. We just help them now and again.
We did find lots of WMDs in Iraq. Yes we did. OK got that everyone?
All those 655,000 people deserved to die in Iraq. Well we lost 3000 in 9-11 so there has to be some justice, right?
God bless America. God bless Bush.
Yee haa!

You are not a thick muppet Kevin. No Kevin you're not and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by KevinG

Could you name a few of these nations?

Afghanistan and Palestine come immediately to mind.

Originally Posted by KevinG

Like I said, they are centuries behind the rest of the world. However, poverty doesn't breed terrorism, terrorism breeds poverty. Most of the nations that are poverty stricken that you speak of have been cultivated that way by terrorist dictators and a religion that oppresses the people.

You keep claiming that, but you still have not even attempted (as far as I can see) to prove that Islam is a cause rather than an incidental factor.

hahahahha. No. You stating two things that have nothing to do with the discussion don't prove your point. Sorry.

Congratulations. You have consistently been such a jerk that I now give your position less credibility than before you started trying to convince us.

I also give you less credibility because you keep making strong emotional claims, then failing to back them up. In particular, you have yet to establish a causal link between Islam and terrorism, rather than an incidental one. You keep pointing out that Islamic nations are less advanced, yet have failed to establish a causal link there either. (No, saying "'tis so!" doesn't count!).

As you were advised regarding your failing blog: If you take an aggressive tone, it becomes more important to make a strong rational argument, not less, or you just come across as a ranting nut. An aggressive stance can add power to a strong position, but you haven't established one here.

Since the onus rightly belongs with you (as the one making the case), and since you're adamantly ignoring any reasonable argument to the contrary, I hand responsibility back to you:

Prove that:
(a) Islam, rather than socio-economic, historical, political or other factors, is the root cause of terrorism; and (since you keep claiming it)
(b) Islam, rather than socio-economic, historical, political or other factors, is the reason that poor Islamic nations are poor.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Keith

Afghanistan and Palestine come immediately to mind.

Sorry, I was asking you to name a few that Islamic terrorists don't come from.

You keep claiming that, but you still have not even attempted (as far as I can see) to prove that Islam is a cause rather than an incidental factor.

The passages in the Koran are being strictly followed - that is your proof. The terrorists cite Islam as their driving force - that is your proof. The enemy is telling you exactly what is behind their actions. Are you telling us that you choose not to believe them?

Congratulations. You have consistently been such a jerk that I now give your position less credibility than before you started trying to convince us.

No, you just can't prove me wrong and want to act like a child.

I also give you less credibility because you keep making strong emotional claims, then failing to back them up. In particular, you have yet to establish a causal link between Islam and terrorism, rather than an incidental one. You keep pointing out that Islamic nations are less advanced, yet have failed to establish a causal link there either. (No, saying "'tis so!" doesn't count!).

You are the one that is ignoring the messages of terrorists, not me. You think nations that are mostly Islamic are on the same technological level as us? Do I need to provide evidence otherwise? I thought this was general knowledge.

As you were advised regarding your failing blog: If you take an aggressive tone, it becomes more important to make a strong rational argument, not less, or you just come across as a ranting nut. An aggressive stance can add power to a strong position, but you haven't established one here.

My blog is not failing by the way, it gains more popularity every single day. Again, you are acting like a child.

Since the onus rightly belongs with you (as the one making the case), and since you're adamantly ignoring any reasonable argument to the contrary, I hand responsibility back to you:

Prove that:
(a) Islam, rather than socio-economic, historical, political or other factors, is the root cause of terrorism; and (since you keep claiming it)

Terrorists make the statements that Islam supports and pushes their actions, I don't need to prove something that you should have known a long time ago. If you used your listening skills you would have already been educated by our enemy.

(b) Islam, rather than socio-economic, historical, political or other factors, is the reason that poor Islamic nations are poor.

I don't recall saying Islam is responsible for the nations being behind us, I merely said that nations which Islam comes from, nations with highly Arab and Muslim populations, are far behind us. I know what the reasons are, and Islam isn't completely to blame for that.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Yes Kevin. Sorry Kevin.

Everyone should worship America.
America has very honest government with no bad history.

I've already exposed you for a fraud and a conspiracy theorist. Now you are showing everyone that you are also an America hater. Great.

Bush is a really nice guy with only good intentions.

I'm assuming you are saying he is evil?

The media isn't manipulative at all.

The media reports a generally liberal agenda, they are very manipulative.

All muslims are terrorist scum and should be shot. All of them bar none.

I never said this. In fact, I repeatedly make the statement: All Muslims ARE NOT terrorists, HOWEVER, all (active) terrorists ARE Muslim.

Islam is really evil and promotes killing innocent people. Evil evil Islam.

The Koran promotes killing non-believers or those who refuse to convert. This is a fact that you cannot deny. The Muslim CULTURE raises children to believe that Christianity and Judaism are evil and that those people must be killed.

I do not believe the Koran teaches it's followers to raise children to be suicide bombers and terrorists, but it is a known fact that MUSLIM CULTURE does raise children for these purposes.

In fact anyone who isn't American should be shot.
Whatever America do is right and no one has the right to question it.

I am very fond of people from many different walks of life. I just don't care for people who want to kill me and my fellow Americans. I also don't care for certain international communities/countries who fail to respect us and think they control us. I don't advocate killing anyone unless they pose a direct threat to me or my country.

Those 200 people in Guantanamo Bay are all guilty and we should keep them caged like animals without charge.

They are prisoners of war. POW's can be held without charge until conflict ends, especially ones that do not fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are innocent until proven guilty, but we have the right to hold them until conflict ends and they are given a trial.

Who cares about human rights aren't we America?

HAHAHHA. They would rather be in Guantanamo, being handed rights and comforts left and right by liberals, than running around thirsty in some dirty cave in Afghanistan, trust me. You can't rationally charge America with human rights violations until you condemn the actions of the people we are fighting. To my knowledge, we haven't cut anyone's head off yet. If you want to start making charges you better start at the top of the list friend.

America is totally impartial to the Israel-Palestine conflict. We do not support Israel's illegal occupation in any way. We just help them now and again.

Israel's illegal occupation? What a joke. Were you educated in an Islamic school?

We did find lots of WMDs in Iraq. Yes we did. OK got that everyone?

Yes, some of us get it.

All those 655,000 people deserved to die in Iraq. Well we lost 3000 in 9-11 so there has to be some justice, right?
God bless America. God bless Bush.
Yee haa!

How many died before we got there? How many died due to the actions of those we are fighting? Last time I checked, American soldiers don't hide behind innocent women and children, shoot from the windows of Mosques and hospitals, and park trucks, guns, and missile launches near schools. They also don't dress like civilians when fighting.

Why do you constantly blame America first? The only reason is if you are an America hater, as I correctly identified you as in the beginning.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by KevinG

Sorry, I was asking you to name a few that Islamic terrorists don't come from.

Albania, for example.

And, as I keep noting, the USA has a large, non-violent muslim population. (I'm sure that you can find evidence of US muslims committing violent acts, but not disproportionately to other Americans).

The passages in the Koran are being strictly followed - that is your proof. The terrorists cite Islam as their driving force - that is your proof.

That's not proof of anything ; people often seek to justify violent action through religion.

A terrorist organisation called the KKK claimed they were doing God's work too. Most Christians would disagree with them.

And muslims vocally disagree that Al Qaeda are doing God's work either. (I posted links earlier).

Originally Posted by KevinG

My blog is not failing by the way, it gains more popularity every single day.

Congratulations. At the time you posted this you were concerned about it. That's what I was referring to.

Originally Posted by KevinG

I don't recall saying Islam is responsible for the nations being behind us, I merely said that nations which Islam comes from, nations with highly Arab and Muslim populations, are far behind us. I know what the reasons are, and Islam isn't completely to blame for that.

Yay, progress! Now that you've acknowledge that there are other factors, you have to explain why you discount all those to assume Islam is the root cause of terrorism.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by KevinG

I've already exposed you for a fraud and a conspiracy theorist. Now you are showing everyone that you are also an America hater. Great.



I'm assuming you are saying he is evil?



The media reports a generally liberal agenda, they are very manipulative.



I never said this. In fact, I repeatedly make the statement: All Muslims ARE NOT terrorists, HOWEVER, all (active) terrorists ARE Muslim.



The Koran promotes killing non-believers or those who refuse to convert. This is a fact that you cannot deny. The Muslim CULTURE raises children to believe that Christianity and Judaism are evil and that those people must be killed.

I do not believe the Koran teaches it's followers to raise children to be suicide bombers and terrorists, but it is a known fact that MUSLIM CULTURE does raise children for these purposes.



I am very fond of people from many different walks of life. I just don't care for people who want to kill me and my fellow Americans. I also don't care for certain international communities/countries who fail to respect us and think they control us. I don't advocate killing anyone unless they pose a direct threat to me or my country.



They are prisoners of war. POW's can be held without charge until conflict ends, especially ones that do not fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are innocent until proven guilty, but we have the right to hold them until conflict ends and they are given a trial.



HAHAHHA. They would rather be in Guantanamo, being handed rights and comforts left and right by liberals, than running around thirsty in some dirty cave in Afghanistan, trust me. You can't rationally charge America with human rights violations until you condemn the actions of the people we are fighting. To my knowledge, we haven't cut anyone's head off yet. If you want to start making charges you better start at the top of the list friend.



Israel's illegal occupation? What a joke. Were you educated in an Islamic school?



Yes, some of us get it.



How many died before we got there? How many died due to the actions of those we are fighting? Last time I checked, American soldiers don't hide behind innocent women and children, shoot from the windows of Mosques and hospitals, and park trucks, guns, and missile launches near schools. They also don't dress like civilians when fighting.

Why do you constantly blame America first? The only reason is if you are an America hater, as I correctly identified you as in the beginning.

I don't hate America. I don't hate Americans. I do hate Bush. I do hate the propaganda machine that breeds ignorant people like you.

I noticed that you defended everything accept the 'thick muppet' point. Hmmmmm....maybe we are getting some where after all.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Keith

Albania, for example.

And, as I keep noting, the USA has a large, non-violent muslim population. (I'm sure that you can find evidence of US muslims committing violent acts, but not disproportionately to other Americans).


That's not proof of anything ; people often seek to justify violent action through religion.

A terrorist organisation called the KKK claimed they were doing God's work too. Most Christians would disagree with them.

And muslims vocally disagree that Al Qaeda are doing God's work either. (I posted links earlier).


Congratulations. At the time you posted this you were concerned about it. That's what I was referring to.


Yay, progress! Now that you've acknowledge that there are other factors, you have to explain why you discount all those to assume Islam is the root cause of terrorism.

You can't cite the KKK, we have been over this. The Bible does not call for killing black people. The KORAN DOES call for killing non-believers. You are comparing apples to oranges. If you are going to be honest in debate, I'm not going to debate with you.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by The Truth

I don't hate America. I don't hate Americans. I do hate Bush. I do hate the propaganda machine that breeds ignorant people like you.

I noticed that you defended everything accept the 'thick muppet' point. Hmmmmm....maybe we are getting some where after all.

You do hate America, we already saw that.

And what propaganda machine are you referring to? The media?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by KevinG

If you are going to be honest in debate, I'm not going to debate with you.

Now I understand.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by KevinG

You can't cite the KKK, we have been over this. The Bible does not call for killing black people. The KORAN DOES call for killing non-believers. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Which only supports my point : Terrorist groups like the KKK and Al Qaeda twist their sources to justify whatever it is they want to do.

That's why the majority of muslims disagree when Al Qaeda says that the Qu'ran supports violent terrorism.

As far as I can tell, all you have to justify your assertion is a few sentences of the Qu'ran taken out of context (Presumably the same ones Al Qaeda like to take out of context).

The Muslims in this thread (and numerous others) have indicated that those sentences need to be studied and understood in the context of the entire Qu'ran and that, when you do so, they reflect particular historical situations. Since their understanding of the Qu'ran is a lot more detailed than yours, I tend to trust their interpretation over yours.

Again: numerous passages in the Bible advocate violence. Some individuals and organisations act on them. Yet most Christians are horrified by these actions - they interpret those sections by their context rather than taking them literally as instructions for how to act in the modern world.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that it's the same for Islam?

Originally Posted by KevinG

If you are going to be honest in debate, I'm not going to debate with you.

Heh. That's surprisingly candid of you.

And with that I'm signing off.

You've clearly pre-decided the answer you want to reach.

It's ironic that you're willing to repeatedly twist and ignore points to justify your position that Al Qaeda can't possibly be twisting and ignoring points to justify their position. Terrorists are always terribly honest and well-reasoned individuals, after all.

I don't know why you bothered to post this topic on a discussion board since you clearly have no interest in discussing its content. Why not just post it on your blog and turn the comments off rather than jumping through all these hoops to avoid listening to other peoples' points?

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Keith

Which only supports my point : Terrorist groups like the KKK and Al Qaeda twist their sources to justify whatever it is they want to do.

No, it doesn't make your point. They have not twisted the Koran, they simply follow it. The KKK twisted the bible, obviously, as it doesn't call for the murder or extermination of blacks. Muslims don't twist the Koran, they just read it.

That's why the majority of muslims disagree when Al Qaeda says that the Qu'ran supports violent terrorism.

IT DOES SUPPORT VIOLENT TERRORISM!!! It is written in the Koran!!!! Wow, I'm not spending anymore time on this, go educate yourself.

As far as I can tell, all you have to justify your assertion is a few sentences of the Qu'ran taken out of context (Presumably the same ones Al Qaeda like to take out of context).

Wrong. Wrong, and wrong again.

The Muslims in this thread (and numerous others) have indicated that those sentences need to be studied and understood in the context of the entire Qu'ran and that, when you do so, they reflect particular historical situations. Since their understanding of the Qu'ran is a lot more detailed than yours, I tend to trust their interpretation over yours.

Wrong again. There are two versions of the Koran, the original Arabic version and the watered down English translation. The English translation is what most Americanized/Europeanized Muslims read and it isn't anywhere near as extreme as the original Arabic version.

Again: numerous passages in the Bible advocate violence. Some individuals and organisations act on them. Yet most Christians are horrified by these actions - they interpret those sections by their context rather than taking them literally as instructions for how to act in the modern world.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that it's the same for Islam?

Do christian schools in the U.S. or in Europe raise kids to believe that non-believers are evil and must be killed? Do we raise children to be suicide bombers and "freedom fighters?" Do we raise them to kill?

Islam does.

See, you don't understand the simple concepts of "extremism" and "fundamentalism" - your lack of understanding is dangerous to our existence.

The real question for you is why is it so hard for you to accept the fact that Islam wants to kill you and the rest of us that don't believe in it? You'd be protecting them while they marched you blindfolded into an Islamic prison to be decapitated. You're a lemming.

[Scott B]

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

Just sayin' is all.

[msd]

Originally Posted by KevinG

The real question for you is why is it so hard for you to accept the fact that Islam wants to kill you and the rest of us that don't believe in it?

KevinG, I hope that in your personal development journey, you move beyond this hatred and this fear based level of consciousness. I was getting boiling mad at this whole thing until I realized that this is just a cry for help. You just need some more love in your life. It was an interesting learning experience, and it's only now that I understand how to deal with people like you in my life: I have to work on myself, and only on myself. And for that I thank you.

[ReallyGoodIdeas]

Yeah msd you're right on that one, I got sucked in too for a bit. It shows what Steve says in his "dealing with closed minded people" blog post. It's us who need to examine ourselves, we need to let go our need to show KevinG our view of the world and are not seeing where his view comes from. And I think you're probably right - its the old love vs fear thing. We can always find things to fear if we look with fear. Same as we can all find things to love, if we look with love.



I wish love to you all
Hazel

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by KevinG

You do hate America, we already saw that.

And what propaganda machine are you referring to? The media?

Bye bye Kevin. Time to go and spread your hatred elsewhere. And the rest of us can get on with personal development which is what this forum should be about.

You are obviously quite a disturbed individual, I genuinely hope you find some peace in your life.

"I guess I could be pretty pissed off about what happened to me... but it's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world. Sometimes I feel like I'm seeing it all at once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon that's about to burst... And then I remember to relax, and stop trying to hold on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and I can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment of my stupid little life... You have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm sure. But don't worry... you will someday."

[Will Edwards]

I don't feel qualified to comment on all the presupositions listed at the start of this thread, however, the statement that no non-muslims have been invloved in organised terrorist attacks within the last 50 years is clearly wrong. The IRA attacks in the UK are one example that readily comes to mind.

However, what I would really like to say is this: I do not think you will find any true follower of Islam to be in favour of terrorism. Exactly the same goes for any true Christian.

It may be quite possible to quote excerpts from the Koran and the Bible that seem to contradict this, but certainly, from my own experience of meeting people who practice each of these faiths, I have found there is a common underlying respect for our fellow human beings regardless of the belief system they choose to adopt.

[tropicality]

Originally Posted by Scott B

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

Just sayin' is all.

I was about to say "and how is the bible any different?" The Islamic may follow more of what is in their 'holy book' but that is because they have not had to adapt to democracy etc. The The Inquisition would still be happening today if it weren't for the political changes that came about.

"7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and
utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

7:5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images,
and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to
be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7:16 And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine
eye shall have no pity upon them:

7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God
and terrible.

7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty
destruction, until they be destroyed."

jewish superiority Quotes from the bible