Terrorism and Islam

[Raoh]

The Muslims in Palestine keep claiming Israel is theirs when it isn't and they continue to kill people over it.

Muslims taking over Russian land. They also tried to start conflicts in neighboring regions, prompting more fighting

pfff
you have a very limited knowledge of recent history.
go visit the world out of the US man, you need it as you apparently have been well brainwashed.
i won't debate with you because my english is too bad, and i suppose your french is even more limited..
But for what i can read from you, it's clear that you're lacking point of view and knowledge.
it will be very amusing if you have some other silly-primitive-mass-american-stereotypical knowledge to share with us : some ideas : France (ah bad...), Cuba (arrrggghh even worse), Amerindians, Kyoto protocol,..
Go for it.
And have a nice day.

[ReallyGoodIdeas]

KevinG, please consult some history books before comtinuing this line. While this whole thing has little to do with personal development, it is interesting that you are looking at the latest stage of a conflict and believing that is the only part of it. You are missing the root causes of these conflicts in your comments.

For example, Palestine - you realise of course, that Israel WAS Palestine before England, US etc decided the Jews should get their homeland? So the Palestinians are correct in believing that it is their country. They were shunted into refugee camps, where they've lived for 3 generations, at least. No compensation was given, they were not resettled, we just took the land and pushed them out. And the Palestinians are not just Muslim, there are Christians and other religions in there too. Whether you agree that the Jews should have had their homeland or not, at least recognise how it came about.

I say this as an example. There are always at least 2 ways of seeing any conflict. And there is usually more to it than meets the eye.

Please read up on the history of these conflicts you refer to before you make these inflamatory comments. Serious debate requires well-informed commentary.

joy to you
Hazel

[Keith]

KevinG, you may well have some valid points. However, you're unlikely to gain much support when you use aggressive comments like "This is nothing more than a group of people letting terrorists off the hook."

If you want more people to support your position, I suggest focussing more on persuasion and less on aggression. Understand that the other people in this thread have good reasons for their positions - they have a different "reality of simple observation" because they've been exposed to different knowledge and experience than you have. If you want them to agree with you, you're going to have to explain why your interpetation of reality is more valid than theirs.

But before you do, I suggest asking yourself the question "Given that all these other people are as firmly convinced of their positions as I am of mine, is it possible that their positions might have some merit?".

All that said, my personal opinions on the topic:

There are an estimated 1.4 billion Muslims, scattered throughout (almost?) all nations of the world. If any significant percentage of them were terrorist fanatics, we would all be dead (or forcibly converted) by now. You can read support for violence in the Koran, just as you can in the Bible[1]. But clearly the vast majority of Muslims aren't reading it that way.

Rather than insisting that Islam is the cause of terrorism, it seems more beneficial to figure out what the root causes are behind a small minority of muslims turning to terrorism, given that the vast majority aren't.

[1] For example, in Joshua 1-12, God orders the Israelites to conquer the surrounding kingdoms for their land. They put whole cities to the sword including women, children and the elderly.

[Michael Chui]

Tell me, KevinG, I'd like you to do an exercise:
1) Tell me three really bad things about America.
2) Tell me three really good things about Islam.

Your pick. Doesn't have to be related. This is partially out of curiosity as to what you'll choose, but mostly out of curiosity to see if you can see the topics from the other perspective.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Raoh

pfff
you have a very limited knowledge of recent history.
go visit the world out of the US man, you need it as you apparently have been well brainwashed.
i won't debate with you because my english is too bad, and i suppose your french is even more limited..
But for what i can read from you, it's clear that you're lacking point of view and knowledge.
it will be very amusing if you have some other silly-primitive-mass-american-stereotypical knowledge to share with us : some ideas : France (ah bad...), Cuba (arrrggghh even worse), Amerindians, Kyoto protocol,..
Go for it.
And have a nice day.

So instead of proving me wrong, you'll just say I'm wrong and then disappear. Great debating style.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Keith

KevinG, you may well have some valid points. However, you're unlikely to gain much support when you use aggressive comments like "This is nothing more than a group of people letting terrorists off the hook."

Sorry Keith, but if you're looking for me to be fake it isn't going to happen. It is what it is, don't shoot me because I realize it.

If you want more people to support your position, I suggest focussing more on persuasion and less on aggression. Understand that the other people in this thread have good reasons for their positions - they have a different "reality of simple observation" because they've been exposed to different knowledge and experience than you have. If you want them to agree with you, you're going to have to explain why your interpetation of reality is more valid than theirs.

They don't take to that too well either.

But before you do, I suggest asking yourself the question "Given that all these other people are as firmly convinced of their positions as I am of mine, is it possible that their positions might have some merit?".

Not when their argument has no solid historical and present day foundation.

All that said, my personal opinions on the topic:

There are an estimated 1.4 billion Muslims, scattered throughout (almost?) all nations of the world. If any significant percentage of them were terrorist fanatics, we would all be dead (or forcibly converted) by now. You can read support for violence in the Koran, just as you can in the Bible[1]. But clearly the vast majority of Muslims aren't reading it that way.

This is not true, unfortunately. Numbers doesn't matter. You are putting them on an equal playing ground with the rest of the world. Muslims haven't taken over the world with their numbers yet because they are centuries behind most of the world in technological advancements, knowledge, and culture. Even arab scholars who have come out condemning Muslim violence have said that this "isn't a clash between civilizations, it is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the middle ages, and a mentality that belongs to the 21st century." They have the numbers, but they don't have the knowledge or weapons.

Rather than insisting that Islam is the cause of terrorism, it seems more beneficial to figure out what the root causes are behind a small minority of muslims turning to terrorism, given that the vast majority aren't.

Unfortunately it isn't a "small minority" as the media would have you believe. This is happening on many countries in the world to millions and millions of people. I already listed a majority of the countries. It only seems like their numbers are small because of the true size of their population. But the Muslims who don't actually carry out the attacks support the attacks, such as in Lebanon where they voted 80% for Hezbollah. Not to mention that they support the cause through their lack of condemnation of it.

[1] For example, in Joshua 1-12, God orders the Israelites to conquer the surrounding kingdoms for their land. They put whole cities to the sword including women, children and the elderly.

I'm tired of this pointless view. Excuse my speech. Why are people citing verses from the bible on me? I don't defend the bible. What I will tell you is that Jesus, as we know him, was a far more perfect man than Mohammad was.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by KevinG

Palestine - who started it? The Muslims in Palestine keep claiming Israel is theirs when it isn't and they continue to kill people over it.

Dear....oh dear. I'd cry if I could stop myself laughing. Let me guess, you saw that on Fox News while munching a box of Oreos. I think even Jews would have a hard time agreeing with that one.

Originally Posted by KevinG

Afghanistan? We certainly didn't start the current conflict, Al Qaeda did and they are aided and harbored by the Taliban.

Is this the same Taliban and Bin Laden that were funded and trained by the CIA during the 80's to fight against the USSR. Is this the same Taliban who's rise to power in the mid-90s was backed by the US Government?

Originally Posted by KevinG

As for the current conflict, that was started by Saddam's non compliance with numerous U.N. regulations and his failure to respond to our 72 hour pre-invasion notice.

Read my first post on this thread. Read it slowly so you can understand it. The UN are the world governing authority, not the US. The UN did NOT give permission for the war. Bush and Blair are guilty of war crimes. Israel has been in breach of 62 resolutions since 1955 - so why don't you attack them? Oh yes one small point - where are the WMDs? Did you find them? Duh.

Originally Posted by KevinG

Should we keep going? Want to talk about Darfur? Want to talk about the Phillipines? Turkey? Thailand? Somalia? Yemen? Pakistan? Indonesia? Algeria? Spain? France?

Yes Kevin. You're absolutely right Kevin. We'll talk some more once you've finished playing in your sandpit Kevin.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Tell me, KevinG, I'd like you to do an exercise:
1) Tell me three really bad things about America.

1. The slaughter of American Indians.

2. Slavery.

3. Women's suffrage.

2) Tell me three really good things about Islam.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... I'm seriously trying to think here. Trying to think past the mysogonism, barbarism, lack of religious freedom, abuse by sharia law, etc. etc.

I don't know. I did my part about America, how about you give me your three positives about Islam.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Dear....oh dear. I'd cry if I could stop myself laughing. Let me guess, you saw that on Fox News while munching a box of Oreos. I think even Jews would have a hard time agreeing with that one.

Would you like to share your version of history with the class? I'm guessing, because you charged me with seeing it on Fox News, that you have no idea what you are about to say.

Is this the same Taliban and Bin Laden that were funded and trained by the CIA during the 80's to fight against the USSR. Is this the same Taliban who's rise to power in the mid-90s was backed by the US Government?

More regurgitated talking points. This is getting us nowhere and is WAY off topic.

Read my first post on this thread. Read it slowly so you can understand it. The UN are the world governing authority, not the US.

They don't govern us my friend, we are a sovereign nation. And don't forget, we can kick them out any time we want

The UN did NOT give permission for the war.

Like I said, the U.N. does not control us, nor does it dictate our foreign policy. You are leaning against a weak railing by backing the U.N. - it is the most obsolete organization in the world of it's kind.

Bush and Blair are guilty of war crimes.

Blah blah blah. Look everyone, no mention of Saddam, Hezbollah, Hamas, Castro, Palestine, Lil Kim, Ahmadinejad, or any other murderous dictator/organization. Nope, it's all Bush and Blairs fault! Lol. Go back to sleep.

Israel has been in breach of 62 resolutions since 1955 - so why don't you attack them? Oh yes one small point - where are the WMDs? Did you find them? Duh.

Yes, we did find WMD's, and this has been proven. Tell me, do you think he never had them?

Yes Kevin. You're absolutely right Kevin. We'll talk some more once you've finished playing in your sandpit Kevin.

Of course, I bet we won't see hide nor hair of a moderator warning him against this kind of personal attack, the same kind of stuff I got reprimanded for.

Just to note, I don't mind the attacks cause I'm a big boy, I just don't like to be unfairly treated by the authority figures.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by ReallyGoodIdeas

KevinG, please consult some history books before comtinuing this line. While this whole thing has little to do with personal development, it is interesting that you are looking at the latest stage of a conflict and believing that is the only part of it. You are missing the root causes of these conflicts in your comments.

For example, Palestine - you realise of course, that Israel WAS Palestine before England, US etc decided the Jews should get their homeland? So the Palestinians are correct in believing that it is their country. They were shunted into refugee camps, where they've lived for 3 generations, at least. No compensation was given, they were not resettled, we just took the land and pushed them out. And the Palestinians are not just Muslim, there are Christians and other religions in there too. Whether you agree that the Jews should have had their homeland or not, at least recognise how it came about.

I say this as an example. There are always at least 2 ways of seeing any conflict. And there is usually more to it than meets the eye.

Please read up on the history of these conflicts you refer to before you make these inflamatory comments. Serious debate requires well-informed commentary.

joy to you
Hazel

perhaps you should dig a little deeper into history, such as, before the U.N. decided what is what, and then figure out exactly WHY they decided that way. It will take a little more digging on your part, but I'm sure you will come to the conclusion that it is Israel's land.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by KevinG

3. Women's suffrage.

Oy... you know what suffrage means, right?

Originally Posted by KevinG

I'm seriously trying to think here. Trying to think past the mysogonism, barbarism, lack of religious freedom, abuse by sharia law, etc. etc.

1. Algebra, and our numbers. I would hate to still be using Roman numerals.
2. Astronomy and navigation.
3. Gender equality in Arabic societies.

And because I know that third one will be challenged, I offer this excerpt:

It does appear that the doctrine of equality of all persons, referred to above by Mujeeb, was taken seriously by Mohammed in relation to the situation of women. In the course of the new Arabian urbanism, women were already losing their earlier heritage of free participation. Mohammed detailed women's rights of inheritance, administration of property, and freedom to choose a partner and to determine conditions of divorce, all of which urban Arabs were taking away from women (O'Faolain and Martines 1973). One could interpret the history of women in Islam as one long struggle on their part to maintain the rights enunciated by Mohammed in the face of a series of traditions hostile to women's rights in the various Mediterranean countries conquered by the Moslems.

From The Underside of History, A View of Women Through Time: Vol. 1 Revised Edition by Elise Boulding. (Amazon.com)

From this view, it's interesting to note exactly how utterly religions failed. I'm begining to suspect that Christianity and Islam have amazingly parallel timelines; I'm going to look into that tomorrow, if I have time.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by KevinG

perhaps you should dig a little deeper into history, such as, before the U.N. decided what is what, and then figure out exactly WHY they decided that way. It will take a little more digging on your part, but I'm sure you will come to the conclusion that it is Israel's land.

Actually, it's Egypt's land. But Egypt thinks it sucks.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Oy... you know what suffrage means, right?

Yes, I use it to signify the entire struggle to get to that point.

1. Algebra, and our numbers. I would hate to still be using Roman numerals.

Arabs made Algebra, not Muslims. The religion has nothing to do with Algebra.

2. Astronomy and navigation.

What does this have to do with Islam? How did the religion lead them to to this point?

3. Gender equality in Arabic societies.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

Equality? hahahahahhahahahahahah.

And because I know that third one will be challenged, I offer this excerpt:

From The Underside of History, A View of Women Through Time: Vol. 1 Revised Edition by Elise Boulding. (Amazon.com)

From this view, it's interesting to note exactly how utterly religions failed. I'm begining to suspect that Christianity and Islam have amazingly parallel timelines; I'm going to look into that tomorrow, if I have time.

You offer a book I need to purchase as evidence that Islam regards women as equal? I already know it doesn't, it is one of the most misogynistic religions in existence.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Actually, it's Egypt's land. But Egypt thinks it sucks.

And you decided this how?

[Keith]

Originally Posted by KevinG

Sorry Keith, but if you're looking for me to be fake it isn't going to happen. It is what it is, don't shoot me because I realize it.

I'm not asking you to be fake, I'm just suggesting you be honest in a non-rude way.

Originally Posted by KevinG

They don't take to that too well either.

People are under no obligation to accept your position - it's entirely possible that they'll disagree either way.

But if you want to minimise your chances of convincing people, an aggressive approach is the way to go. It makes people defensive, and when people are defensive they aren't listening.

Originally Posted by KevinG

This is not true, unfortunately. Numbers doesn't matter. You are putting them on an equal playing ground with the rest of the world. Muslims haven't taken over the world with their numbers yet because they are centuries behind most of the world in technological advancements, knowledge, and culture. [...] They have the numbers, but they don't have the knowledge or weapons.

"Muslim" isn't a nation. There are 5-6 million Muslims in the US and 1.6 million in the UK, and they're no less technologically advanced and knowledgable than any other American/Briton.

If even 10% (an underestimate if Islam is inherently violent) were fanatical terrorists that's half a million fanatical terrorists running around on US soil. Since there aren't daily terror attacks in every State, that's clearly not the case.

Since Muslims are everywhere, yet terrorism is centred in particular areas of the world, it's clear that Islam itself is not the cause. Something in that region is. Perhaps something to do with a resource-poor region with a history of war[1]?

Originally Posted by KevinG

Not to mention that they support the cause through their lack of condemnation of it.

Actually, many do - it just tends not to make the media.
* Muslims Condemn Terrorism
* Do Muslims Ever Condemn Terrorist Attacks? | The Baheyeldin Dynasty
* Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Why are people citing verses from the bible on me?

People are responding to your comment "The bible doesn't advocate actions such as the crusades, the Koran DOES advocate actions such as jihad and the murder of non-believers who refuse to convert."

They are pointing out that, by your logic (ie. "'cos it says so in their holy book"), Christians are fanatical terrorists who have a religious need to slaughter unbelievers too.

[1] IIRC, in "Guns, Germs and Steel" Jared Diamond cited a comparatively fragile environment as responsible for the collapse in the Middle East. The Ottoman Empire was more advanced than Europe for a long time, but the plant life of the Fertile Crescent was less resiliant than that of Europe and eventually their food and wood supplies failed, crippling the civilisation. (That's the gist - please forgive me if I muddled some of the specifics).

[Keith]

Let's take a different tack for a moment here.

There are basically 3 definitions of "Muslim" floating around in this thread:
1. Someone from a country consisting primarily of Muslims
2. Someone who identifies themself as a follower of the Muslim religion
3. Someone who follows the Koran in a literalist manner

We're being very sloppy about which one we use at any given time, often sliding from one to the other as best suits a particular point.

For example, KevinG said "Muslims [...] support the attacks, such as in Lebanon where they voted 80% for Hezbollah" (ie. the Muslim religion of a nation motivates its actions), then went on to say that Algebra was the invention of "Arabs not Muslims" (ie. the Muslim religion of a nation does not motivate its actions). (Aside: Lebanon is ~40% Christian).

We need to untangle this a bit.

Let's look at a national level:

1000 years ago, Islamic nations were more technologically advanced than Europe. Superiority of culture is a lot more subjective, but they clearly had a full and rich culture.

Let's talk about the repression of women:

If you looked at Europe and America a few centuries ago, you would clearly say that Christian cultures are repressive towards women. Certainly there would be no lack of people justifying repression of women with a well-chosen verse from the Bible.

But over time this changed. As the standard of living improved, people had more time and resources for intellectual pursuits and began to question the validity of repressing women. Nowadays most westerners would agree that, if you consider the Bible in context, Christianity is compatible with equality for women.

Many poor Muslim nations repress women. It is instructive to note that this is the opposite of the Christian example. As Michael points out, the Koran supports womens rights, yet these nations found ways to justify repressing them anyway.

These examples indicate that repression of women is linked to standard of living, rather than religion. There is no reason to believe it's an inherent trait of Islam itself, especially as the Koran is less repressive of women than the Bible, and Christians managed to form a (mostly) equal society.

(Oops, this is getting long - I'll reserve looking at the individual level for another post).

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by KevinG

And you decided this how?

Egypt is the sovereign entity with the oldest claim to that strip of land.

Originally Posted by KevinG

Arabs made Algebra, not Muslims. The religion has nothing to do with Algebra.

There wasn't actually a distinction between the religion and and their ethnicity. However, Arabs did not make algebra; Persians did. An Islamic one, to be specific. As with most other mathematics, algebra began as a religious tool for insight into the workings of the supernatural. In this case, the reunion of numbers.

Originally Posted by KevinG

What does this have to do with Islam? How did the religion lead them to to this point?

The same way Christianity led Sir Isaac Newton to believe that the stars were governed by physical laws.

Originally Posted by KevinG

You offer a book I need to purchase as evidence that Islam regards women as equal? I already know it doesn't, it is one of the most misogynistic religions in existence.

Imagine that. Considering a different viewpoint. Not easy for you, is it?

Here, you don't have to purchase it; I didn't. I'll give you the same text that explained it to me, which I personally typed up from a photocopy of the book which was in the possession of one of my professors.

It's a little long, so it'll come in two parts.