Terrorism and Islam

[Ali]

Time to start defending themselves, why not?? Off course he should go and fight those people and kill them what on earth would you do?? If somebody wants to hold a gun and come and kill your family what would you do ???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if the speech did not work with those people then what else is suppose to happen?? Those people CONSTANTLY abused the new Muslims at that time.


In Islam fighting for your own life and STRUGGLING (i.e Jihad) against a difficulty you are facing is a very noble thing sand that’s when verse like these were revealed:

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Let's try verse 9:111 - "Allah has purchased from the faithful their lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for the cause of Allah, they will slay, and be slain."

Let's start with verse 4:74 - "Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of Allah; whoever fights for the cause of Allah, whether he dies or triumphs, on him We shall bestow a rich recompense.[/quote]

++++++++++++++++

We believe that God does not just command you to stand up for your self however God will reward you for it. And it is a very very noble thing to give your life for Allah. Give your life for Allah??? What does that mean? Giving life for Allah happens through the actions that I mentioned above. Fighting and dying for your country, family and any belongings.

My good dear friends. That’s the basic roots of Islam. Its up to you to believe me, I suggest you do a further research if you want to know more about Islam.

Bottom line is the fighting versus came as a Counter Attack to the enemies of Mohammed who wanted to kill him and kill the message. And as a rule in Islam just like any social, economical, spiritual or political rules .. orders to fight the enemy and defend yourself and others is a must and that’s why Mohammed had those wars and Quran has many versus about fighting. Because at the beginning of the message of Islam people in that area didn’t like it and they started to get violent.

Off course you will have verses like:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful


If any country knows for sure outsiders are preparing to attack it wouldn’t you think they would try to attack those outsiders first if they can?? Go and ambush them before the attack the country? Didn’t Mohammed have the right to go and stop those people before they attack him? I mean they tried to assassinate him more than once besides all those wars. Why? Because they didn’t like his message. The message started with Salam Alaikom, Ashahado an la ilaha illa Allah – Translation _> peace be upon you, I bare witness there is only One God.

You will then be asking me about those shocking paragraphs:


The Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyya (d. 132 wrote that captive non-Muslim non-combatants, including women and children, could be executed if they merely engaged in verbal or written opposition to Islam:

"As for those who cannot offer resistance or cannot fight, such as women, children, monks, old people, the blind, handicapped and their likes, they shall not be killed unless they actually fight with words [e.g. by propaganda] and acts [by spying or otherwise assisting in the warfare]. Some jurists are of the opinion that all of them may be killed, on the mere ground that they are unbelievers, but they make an exception for women and children since they constitute property for Muslims."


Yeh now I agree with you this is NUTS by all means .. did you read what it said in the first place? jurist Ibn Taymiyya it is a scholar and not Mohammed or The quran. I do not follow all Muslims scholars and to be honest not All scholars are good as we all know,
I mean Muslim scholars. There are 1000s of Muslim scholars and this one is one of them whom I do not follow as many scholars differ in opinion with him. The above statement is pathetic, sick and unacceptable.

Oh yeh the idea about converting people to Islam or kill them .. people got it confused, despite what ever idiots now days are doing the pure teachings of Islam went as follows:-

**Those non-believers who attacked and killed the week Muslims are to be stopped and they must be fought and executed before they carry on, however if they are caught the only way that they will be spared is if they accept the message, as it is all for the sake of the message and having a strong and pure relationship with God**

NO WAY on earth a Muslim is meant to go to anybody and FORCE them to be Muslims or kill them, that option was for the offenders who already deserved to be punished.

But one might say hey you could be lying as Mohammed does want to kill other non-Muslims .. I would say: could you please tell me why when he started his Islamic state in (Medina) Christians and Jews were living in the same city in peace? And they even use to debate with him, no where in our Islamic history it said that “one day Mohammed saw a Christian in Medina and decided to kill him because he is Christian” .. And what about this verse in Quran.

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." Quran 3.64

People of the book in quran = Christians and Jews. We call them people of the book as they came with the first revelations The Bible and Torah

“come to common terms as between us and you” that’s what prophet Mohammed said to the non-muslims in Madina, invitation to common terms i.e “we both worship one God so lets come under this banner”

I admit there are many crazy Muslims out there but really you can not judge the belief by its people. Me as an Iraqi I was watching on CNN 2 American soldiers packing some sort of a missile with grenades which they were going to shoot, they were in the Iraqi city of Babylon and they decided to read the bible the chapter that tells story about Babylon to remember God before They shoot the missiles. They stood their and they red the story in the bible about Babylon then guess what they did? They shot those damn missiles. So me as a Muslims should I think Christianity is evil because of that incident?? Well those Christians where reading the bible and praying to god in the Christian way then shooting the missiles. Do I have the excuse to accuse Christianity with violence? Off course not I would be stupid to do that. You might say we all know that the bible didn’t tell them to shoot the missiles but for a poor Iraqi farmer who lives in that city and I can assure you those types of people don’t know much about Christianly. They will JUDGE Christianity from that scene as much as you judging Islam from what you see.

For the above discussion I made my sources are the books that I mentioned above. I have those books with me in Arabic and I will find out available resources for you to know about Islam more form actual Muslims and not copy paste from anybody who only red something’s about Islam and decided to make websites and attacks.

Am just saying lets dig deep enough about any group of people before we start saying things about them.

Well sorry for the long post but I had to answer and reveal to you what I got, I haven’t said everything but I got to go now

Chat to you all later.

Thanks

Ali

[WanderingOak]

I would like to join the chorus of people asking 'What does this have to do with Personal Development?'. Unless this is a demonstration of the lack of PD, I don't see the point of it in that context. While this may have been intended to be a post on 'changing the world', it instead comes across as politico-religious diatribe against Islam. As far as I am concerned, this type of argument is the lowest of the low, the least common denominator. I am here to learn, to develop myself further, not to argue or trade insults. There are plenty of political sites throughout the web devoted to such a purpose. I would have thought better from the individuals in this forum. If only we knew it, we are capable of so much more.

[Ali]

Dear WanderingOak

I apologize to any PD member if my post has breached any PD forum rules, My intention was to share my thoughts and ideas about my belief that is being accused. I am like you here seeking PD.

thanks

Ali

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by Ali

Dear WanderingOak

I apologize to any PD member if my post has breached any PD forum rules, My intention was to share my thoughts and ideas about my belief that is being accused. I am like you here seeking PD.

thanks

Ali

Ali, there is no apology necessary. Your post in this thread was one of the few that actually made sense. My comments were towards the originator of this thread.

[PhoenixBlossom]

Originally Posted by WanderingOak

I would like to join the chorus of people asking 'What does this have to do with Personal Development?'. Unless this is a demonstration of the lack of PD, I don't see the point of it in that context. While this may have been intended to be a post on 'changing the world', it instead comes across as politico-religious diatribe against Islam. As far as I am concerned, this type of argument is the lowest of the low, the least common denominator. I am here to learn, to develop myself further, not to argue or trade insults. There are plenty of political sites throughout the web devoted to such a purpose. I would have thought better from the individuals in this forum. If only we knew it, we are capable of so much more.

Ditto.

I think it's (sort of) a credit to the participants that this thread hasn't become more vitriolic...

Here is a personal challenge to each of you: Put some of the energy you are using to analyze, critique and criticize into just feeling love for 5 minutes. If you can't direct the love at your "enemy", then just direct it at yourself, or your pet, or your SO. IMHO you'll be doing much more good for the world than you are with this conversation.


Love & Joy

[Hsiang-Lin]

First of all, I do think this thread raises important issues regardless of how vitriolic it has gotten. Terrorism and Islam are real and current issues and as someone who was born and raised in Saudi Arabia, I feel a bigger urge to understand them. I often think of what I would do and how I should react if my loved ones or I became hostages. It's a really ugly thought, but one I feel that I'll have to confront (hopefully internally) to raise my consciousness.

I'm in no way an expert on the history of terrorism or Islam, but I have some questions that I hope the Muslims in this thread can help me out with. I'm particularly interested in your responses since more often I hear perspectives from the other side.

Ali, you wrote the following:

"Time to start defending themselves, why not?? Off course he should go and fight those people and kill them what on earth would you do?? If somebody wants to hold a gun and come and kill your family what would you do ???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if the speech did not work with those people then what else is suppose to happen?? Those people CONSTANTLY abused the new Muslims at that time."

Now I will be treading on very thin ground here. But I feel that is the fundamental difference between Mohammed and Jesus. Jesus was threatened with his life and so were his followers just like Mohammed was. Yet, Jesus chose self-sacrifice to spread his message whereas Mohammed opted for protection of his own life so he engaged in battle.

Jesus' reaction to such overbearing social pressure just seems so much more honorable and noble to me than Mohammed's does. Mohammed's choice of action certainly makes sense within the context of human life, but Jesus' reaction for me seems like one that goes beyond human life and that's why I find it more inspiring than Mohammed's message.

Now you ask, what would I do if I were in Mohammed's situation? Well, prob. something similar. But that's the thing. I'm still only human. I like to imagine I am modeling after someone like Jesus who has transcended the needs of humanity such as life and is able to suffer the worst to uphold some kind of divine message. I don't feel it's smart to say, "Well, if I can't imagine or do better, then I shouldn't expect the person I'm modeling after to be able to do the same either." That's what makes religious figures so interesting. They are able to transcend humanity. Yet, Mohammed's reactions to oppression in this case seems to make him just as human as we are, which is what tickles me funny.

Now let me make this clear: THESE ARE MY CURRENT THOUGHTS. They in no way define the way I feel about Muslims or Christians in general. I'm not even Christian. But I'm open to new ideas and beliefs as I know my current mental hardware is far from perfect.

So with that said, I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say about this.

[belugagirl]

Hello, everyone. Thank you especially to Minnie and Ali for giving us an inside view. It has been informative. I appreciate your time investment sharing your knowledge and views with us.

Despite my hope that this could be a fruitful and thoughtful discussion, it's looking like contributions like Minnie's and Ali's are either being delivered to the choir (those who already believe that Islam in its essence is not the problem) or are falling on deaf ears.

KevinG, when you have to resort to retorts like these: "Ok, time for you to tell the truth. You are just another person who hates America." Or, "Let's all hate on America and make excuses for the good ol' Muslim terrorists!" you are responding out of anger and defensiveness and are not really engaged with ideas or reason.

I am going to take PhoenixBlossom's suggestion and go feel some love for 5 minutes! (KevinG, I will be directing a good deal of it to you. It sounds like you can use some extra.) Since discussion is not doing what I had hoped, maybe sending out some love will do better.

Thank you to everyone who tried to keep this constructive. For the aforementioned reasons, however, I believe it's time for me to bow out. See you elsewhere on the PDF!

Minnie, good luck on your exams!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Ali

I thought there should be something about Islam in this forum. But I never knew there will be a post like KevinGs one and other firends here

Heh. I'd suggest you go and find Adam. He's trying to do a "Weekly Religion" thing over in the Spirituality folder, and a good, solid post on Islam might be rather interesting. There was no post last Wednesday, which makes me wonder what's up.

[RT Wolf]

Originally Posted by belugagirl

Despite my hope that this could be a fruitful and thoughtful discussion, it's looking like contributions like Minnie's and Ali's are either being delivered to the choir (those who already believe that Islam in its essence is not the problem) or are falling on deaf ears.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The discussion started with the postulation that Islam is inherently violent and denegrated from there.

I do not believe that Islam is any more or less inherently violent than other religions like Christianity or Judaism.

Might I offer an alternate hypothesis?

Many (most) of the regions which are predominantly Muslim also happen to be part of the developing world. If anyone's been to the developing world, you'll know that many people there live and work out of a constant sense of fear, anger and paranoia. People who live in that state happen to be fairly susceptible to being brainwashed and manipulated. Most of these people haven't actaully read the teachings of Islam (or understand them, if they don't speak Arabic or can't find translations). People who feel victimized are also very likely to lash out against others in irrational ways.

I take the alternate view, that most of hte Muslim world of today is not unlike the Western world as little as a hundred years ago. Look at the rights and role of women a hundred years ago.

I am not saying that the Muslim world should come in line with teh rest of the world, just that that is the state of affairs right now.

Hehe, I suppose I am saying that Islam is not the root cause. I may be falling prey to liking distortion or I may be offering an alternate hypothesis which I feel accounts for more.

BTW, it would appear that KevinG has been banned. I like Pavlina's style--no trolls whatsoever.

[Steve Pavlina]

KevinG is on a temporary 10-day ban and is no longer a moderator here. He's free to return as a registered member in 10 days. I regret having to do that, but it wasn't for trolling. It was for making personal attacks against other members and continuing to do so even after being warned to discontinue such behavior. I had to delete several of Kevin's posts that included personal attacks over a 2-3 day period.

Debating a belief system is perfectly acceptable here, and such threads are bound to become controversial at times. What crosses the line, however, is when someone begins casting insults at other members for holding the beliefs they do or at groups of people such as Muslims.

It's always possible to engage in intellectual discussion without resorting to personal attacks, and neither the moderators nor myself are above that standard.

[Ali]

Hello Everybody

I haven’t been posting in the forum for a little while as I have been busy.

Thank you for your post Hsiang-Lin, you raised interesting points. I will present to you the Islamic point of view on this thread (that includes my personal point of view) .. Excuse me as it is a along post however it contains more in depth points about Islam for anybody who is interested.

You mentioned the point of the Idea that the action of Jesus is more appealing to you than Mohammeds as he did a very noble thing. One must understand the basics of both beliefs very clearly to understand the actions that where built upon them.

First of All people must understand the definition of Mohammed in Islam. Mohammed is NOT GOD in Islam. He is a human being that is chosen by the higher power that controls the universe, God. Mohammed is a prophet. The definition of a prophet in Islam is different form Christianity a bit. We believe that because the prophet was chosen by the All mighty power the prophet will do a perfect job. They are normal human beings however they are not Gods (including Mohammed) but they are the highest of the human beings. The difference in Christianity is God came in the picture of a human as the prophets did not do a perfect job because they are humans only hence humans sin. With Muslims we believe that once God wants a message to be revealed the method that God chooses can not be flawed hence there is no need for God to come down because he doesn’t make the wrong choice from the first place. It is up to people whether they follow the prophets or not.

As a Prophet i.e the choice of God Mohammed had to build the best way for humanity to live i.e a great society hence any body who chooses to follow his example will need to have to follow applicable examples from Mohammed. It is different from Christianity in a building a society wise. I am not saying Christianity did not advocate building a society and all however as I mentioned in my last posts matters regarding the social, economical and political system is part of the belief of a Muslim. It isn’t enough to go to the mosque and do the best prayers you have done in your life. If you go to the mosque and do the best prayers you have done in your life however if you are bad outside your prayers you have not earned the acceptance of God. In the Quran it says “Prayers should stop you from any wrong doing” .. The Islamic traditions put the base of “prayers and good behavior goes hand in hand” .. The aim in Islam is not to try and reach the best of Spirituality only it is for both physical life and spirituality.. Treating each other with respect, thriving for the best in life and being succeful in all types of fields in life, forgivness and other noble manners are part of being a good Muslims and it goes hand in hand with your spiritual activities. Mohammed said "I was sent to prefect the noble manners" ..

Therefore if Mohammed did not protect that perfect society that he wanted to build there won’t be anything to have. If he needs to relate to people who want to follow him he must try to get to their level and show them how to live, that’s how a leader should live. We believe a leader should feel the same thing as what people feel. He should feel pain, have a family. Live like a normal human being however he must be the best of them. That is a True messenger of God. Mohammed advocated self defense and to struggle against any type of harm to end it (and not attack others if not attacked) to protect the family or the society that you have to keep peaceful life going for others and for the future generations. We do not take the idea of God needs to come to peoples level it is actually a very opposite idea to the Islamic belief to try and personalize God as a Human. If God is powerful God can send representatives if God wants, and they shouldn’t fail by breaking Gods laws. Another issue is the idea of Jesus being God and in the same time he was abused. I do understand the idea of a sacrifice and being noble but Islam believes that God can not be harmed and the sacrifices happen to the people who advocate Gods message and not God himself. (if I refer to God as himself or he I do not mean to make it a male, God is beyond Genders)

I do hope that people do not get offended as I am projecting the Islamic idea. All my respect goes to my fellow Christian friends, as Steve said we are allowed to discuss beliefs in here

The definition of God in Islam is a higher power beyond anybodies senses that crated and sustains every piece of the universe. It does not take a physical shape nor can be harmed. It does not have a family nor friends. It is something beyond all that we know. We believe that if you think the universe is great, complex and beautiful. And believe some power formed it then that power is beyond every thing you think off and one can not capture it in any type of physical sense because if it is captured by any sense then it is sized hence it is limited and one can keep thinking of anything bigger than the picture you placed God in it. Muslims also believe that any higher power communicates with its people below it. For example a manager communicates with his or her employees hence the greater owner of the universe does communicate with the creatures. And those forms of communications are the prophets. All Prophets are the greatest of human beings as they should be the best example. It isn’t worthy following a lying cheating leader. Jesus in Islam is considered one of the top prophets and his sayings are quoted by Mohammed and his followers a lot. As Islam does recognize the messages before it. We believe that you get to know God through different parts of the creation and ponder about them. Any great creation should have a great creator behind it. We resent the idea of picturing God as a man or anything like that as it is missing the point in looking at the greater, more spiritual and beautiful picture of that power.

I do feel that Islam is getting very very bad rep from media and some stupid Muslims themselves, as a Muslim I have the duty to show people what is the truth about Islam. Whether you agree with it or not that isn’t the point, the point is you do get the right picture of what the belief says and not the wrong picture.

I do beg your pardon for writing such a long post. May be I need to take a course in simplification .

Thanks

Ali

[ReallyGoodIdeas]

Nice post Ali! I heard from some Muslim friends of mine that it recognises the books before Mohammed was around. It seems like a very nice religion. I reckon it would be good thing for more Muslims to publicly explain the religion wherever possible. Unfortunately, I am aware of Muslims here getting a hard time, which would make it difficult. Egad! We demonise and then we tell the wrong story for you.

Joy to you
Hazel

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Ali

I am not saying Christianity did not advocate building a society and all however as I mentioned in my last posts matters regarding the social, economical and political system is part of the belief of a Muslim.

Does this mean it is part of the belief of a Muslim to belief that a society should be build on the Sharia instead of Democratic principles?

[nidy]

Originally Posted by KevinG

The following comments started the discussion of terrorism and Islam...

1. You mentioned the crusades and religious extremism being present in all religions. You are correct. However, this does not describe Islam. Islamic terrorists are not "extremists" they are "fundamentalists." The Koran calls for the conversion of all non-Muslims and those who do not convert are to be killed. You can read it yourself.

2. Islam is inherently dangerous and violent. The Koran promotes violence against everyone who is non-Muslim and not a believer in Allah, especially Christians and Jews.

3. Islam is the only religion that currently trains terrorists, runs countries that fund terrorism world wide, and teaches children to hate Christians and Jews during religious studies.

4. In the last fifty years, no major organized terrorist attacks have been carried out by non-Muslims anywhere in the world. Whether they are blowing up our buildings, flying planes into our towers, blowing themselves up in market places, shooting children in the back, or attacking our embassies, 99% of every terrorist attack in the world has ties to Islam.

5. Islam is the only religion that has a call to holy war. No other religion has anything equal to the "jihad."

6. The Koran claims that Islam's "end of days" will not take place until everyone on Earth is converted to Islam. If you put 2 and 2 together you will see that the Koran calls for all non-Muslims to be converted and those who do not convert shall be killed. What does this lead us to?

Name one ORGANIZED terrorist attack by a group of people in the last 50 years that was not perpetrated in the name of Islam.

who is spreading terrorism , u should know by now.Wat would u call killing of innocent people in middle east.Is that right? I dont favour any one .In my opinion anyone who kills innocent people is a terrorist. So u cannot generalise . Not evry1 is the same. Every religion teaches love of humanity.V should respect evry religin.Its very easy to give comments. only if had gone thru wat ppeople there r facing u wud kno.Im nt a muslim nor christian bt respect evry1.

[Hsiang-Lin]

Thank you for the long response, Ali. I find it very interesting to get a perspective from a Muslim. I normally don't discuss these issues with my Muslim friends because I don't know if they'll take offense to it or not. But here's some further questions I have:

You wrote,

"The aim in Islam is not to try and reach the best of Spirituality only it is for both physical life and spirituality.. Treating each other with respect, thriving for the best in life and being succeful in all types of fields in life, forgivness and other noble manners are part of being a good Muslims and it goes hand in hand with your spiritual activities. Mohammed said "I was sent to prefect the noble manners" .."

So here's my train of thought:

At some point in history, people unanimously agreed that Mohammed was indeed a model figure for life. Yet, they also accepted him as a human instead of a part of God (as Jesus was accepted in the Holy Trinity idea). Hence, he is capable of human logic and reactions. So if his family or loved ones is under threat, he will naturally rise up to defend them physically.

The biggest problem I still have with all this is that Mohammed is still only human, YET he was chosen by God somehow to represent the ideal way of life. Somehow, Mohammed was given the gift of knowing how to live perfectly and great wisdom. That is a big leap of faith for me. I'm not sure what he did that led so many people to believe that...perhaps you can shed some more light? I just want to see what he did that made so many people believe him and once I can imagine myself as those people back in his time, perhaps I'll understand this better.

Also, once I understand it better, I can then tackle the question of how is Mohammed justified in defending his loved ones physically? This question is a big one for me as to which spiritual figures to follow. The reason I like Buddha and Jesus' teachings so much is that they seem to transcend humanity. When Jesus was threatened with death, he did not retaliate or rise to defend himself. He continued to spread his message of compassion. That for me is a stronger and more inspiring vision than say, Mohammed, who chose to defend his family physically rather than choosing to represent an unconditional forgiveness and compassion for all.

I'm not saying I could do what Jesus did, but just from an outside perspective, someone who could bear the lost of loved ones and suffer so greatly himself to show the world how great a power compassion really is is just more inspiring and also close to the heart. I'm not saying Mohammed was bad, but that his humanistic qualities seem a little too human for such a spiritual figure. And I would think he would realize that his humanistic qualities are not meant to be modeled unless he really believed his way of life was perfect?

Sorry, hope this is not offensive. I just need more information to make sense of the logic and reasoning behind Islam.

[noorodeen]

Hello everyone,

I just stumbled upon this forum. I've been a reader of Steve's blog, but I just found the forum today. and...I was very surprised with some of the posts here about Islam. I thought it was a forum on personal development....and that people interested in a higher consciousness wouldn't push such ignorance hatred etc...

I had moved to the middle east two years ago. I was in California prior to that. I came back a week ago for a long visit to my parents and the first day I looked on the floor next to the chair and I found a post about random shootings in Newark. I said huh...they call it shootings here, but when it happens in the middle east they call it terrorist attack. Interesting? It then occurred to me that a lot of these shootings end in the attacker killing himself. So why aren't they called suicide attacks? It's funny how when you unplug for sometime, you start to see things a bit differently.

With your permission, I'd like to add a bit to what Ali has said, may Allah reward him, and attempt to answer some of Hsiang-Lin's questions.

As muslims we don't separate ourselves from Christianity and Judaism. It's all one message, one religion from God. The same way Jesus peace be upon him didn't separate himself from the Jews, Mohamed peace be upon him said all the prophets that came before me built a house. The only thing that was missing in that house is the roof. I've come to finish the building of the house and perfect it.

Islam means submission. All the prophets preached submission to God. Islam is nothing new. As muslims we believe and honor all the prophets and revealed books. In fact christains and jews are called people of the book. We believe that god chose to reveal different messages for different people throughout time. Those messages were specific for their needs and their times. Once society had reached a certain level of development, the time had come for a final message that is to be complete, and perserved to the end of time such that no more revelation would be needed. That's what Islam is. Islam came at a time when the world was ready to write and record teh teachings. God had decreed that time and reserved the final revelation that is now appropriate until the end of time for the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him. Prophet Mohamed explained that all the prophets are brothers and as such, he's a brother to Jesus, Moses, Abraham and the rest of the prophets peace be upon them.

Now, the whole self defense vs self sacrifice issue. Let me just refer back again, Islam is the same general message of Jesus. Jesus peace be upon him was no more self sacrificing than Mohamed peace be upon him. Similarly Mohamed was no more violent than Jesus peace be upon both of them. Any fighting done by prophet Mohamed was not violence, but rather it was his mission from God. God decreed that this is the final revelation. It has to be preserved, as such, he was commanded to fight. He DID NOT fight of his own desire. He was instructed to fight. Jesus peace be upon him was not. Mohamed peace be upon him was instructed to build a society and to teach all the necessary rules that will arise when establishing a society and nation state. Any nation state has to deal with war. It's impractical to assume otherwise. His role was more comprehensive than that of Jesus peace be upon him and that's why he had to deal with a LOT more issues, war being one of them.

Now, I want to prove that he wasn't any less self sacrificing and I want to explain why people fell in love with him and accepted him as a perfect role model. To do so, I'll just cite a couple of historical accounts of events that happened.

Before being inspired to preach his new message, he was very beloved and respected by his tribe. However, after what happened, they declared war against him. He saw his own friends battered, tortured in the scorching heat, and mercilessly killed. He himself was strangled, beaten, abused for a period of about 10years without ever for a second thinking of fighting back. Not once. His neighbhor would leave gargage in front of his door step by way of humiliation. One day his neighobr was ill and didn't leave the garbage. Prophet Mohamed noticing the clean door step thought some harm had afflicted his neighbor. He went to visit him to make sure he was OK, and if he needed anything........

One day he went to the neighboring town to invite them to Islam, to submit to God. They humiliated him, and sent their kids to chase him in the streets throwing stones on him. Tired and beat, he sat down with bleeding feet after he got away. The angel of mountains came down and asked him, if you command me, I can destroy their entire village. I can cause the mountain to fold on them. He peace be upon him, said, no. Maybe ONE day, God will guide ONE of them. His message, his entire being has one goal and one goal only. To save humanity, to guide humanity to its betterment.

It baffles me how any misguided muslim would dare harm another human being for absolutely no reason in the name of Islam, when the prophet of Islam, after being beat and humiliated, forgave the entire town, for maybe, just maybe one day one person would turn out good from them. You have to realize the magnitude of this event in its context. What this town did is the greatest possible insult to the message of God, and in turn a blow in the face of God so to speak, yet God FORGAVE them for it. Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him doesn't act off his own. He's inspired and directed. He's a reflection of the perfection of Allah in a human form. His mercy is of Allah's mercy, as complete as it can ever be in a human and so on...

I want to conclude this post with another story. Prophet Mohamed was kicked out of his own hometown in fear of being assassinated after 13 years of his message. All the meanwhile w/o doing anything in return. 8 years after being kicked out and 3 battles later, (to put things in perspective, in the first battle only 70-100 people died TOTAL, battle back then were not for the purpose of killing people...compare that to one shooting of today in a crowded school...though the shock and terror value of a school shooting is much greater) he was able to CONQUER his home town PEACEFULLY without raising one sword. He marshed in with his army. When he marched in, his head covered, head bowed in humility to the point that it was almost touching the the main of the camel he was riding.....This was no arrogant feat, now after all you've done to me, after all the abuse after all the battery, I am going to show you now....no....it was humility to God for having given him the upper hand after having been beaten and abused.

When he saw his enemies, he asked, what do you think I'll do with you? You who have persecuted, tortured, stolen our properties, and killed us?

Guess what they said....Because they knew how self sacrificing he was...They said, you are a generous brother, and the son of a generous brother. He said I'll say the same thing that my brother Joseph peace be upon him told his brothers, no reprimand shall be upon you today. Go, you are free.

Prophet Mohamed summed his mission into a sentence that's also revealed in the Quran. "I am but a mercy that's gifted to humanity."

...So...if you see anything done in the name of Islam....realize, it's not in the name of Islam. Muslims like anyone else have bad apples amongst them. Those that go on shooting rampages in America are those that go on shooting rampages in the middle east. One happens to be godless, the other happens to be a Muslim.

Our Islamic history is full of stories that illustrate the mercy of Islam. It's also full of political games that reflect politics and human greed. You need to seperate the wheat from the chaff to be objective. Additionally, in Islam it was recognized that the perfect state that was brought about by Prophet Mohamed would not last very long. That's why He taught that the model government to follow as a model is his society up until 30years after his death....after that...you'll see mixed good and bad....

Hope that helps.
thanks,
noorodeen

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Does this mean it is part of the belief of a Muslim to belief that a society should be build on the Sharia instead of Democratic principles?

Shh. Don't believe the American rhetoric about Christianity being democratic. If you want to see the root of that, it was the American Declaration of Independence. From a Christian monarchy. You also might want to read the Book of Revelations.

Christianity didn't bother building a society until they realized that the Second Coming wasn't going to happen in their lifetimes. They were mostly hiding out and praying and waiting. And it didn't happen. So they began working on figuring out a society.

Everyone: For those of you who are badmouthing what KevinG said, you might want to read the subsequent posts, especially the one Steve Pavlina wrote.

It's over here: