You don't have the answer

[The Cloud]

for anybody else. You only have the answer for yourself.

I've been realizing this more and more of late. Giving people answers, no matter how eloquently stated and logically argued, accomplishes virtually nothing in terms of helping them. Until somebody comes to a personal understanding independently, the answer means nothing. Only once this independent understanding has been achieved does the answer have any meaning.

So I am beginning to believe that telling somebody why their beliefs are wrong and explaining what is wrong with them and proposing a belief that doesn't encounter that problem is next to useless. Only once they fundamentally understand the belief will they realize that you were right (provided you were), and by that time they no longer need your explanation. I've been posting long involved answers to many people's questions on why they are so miserable and what they can change their beliefs to in order to not be so miserable, and I'm beginning to think that it has no real benefit beyond improving my typing skills. The same thing applies to my interactions with real people; no matter how clearly I state my point it just doesn't penetrate.

So people have to find their own answers. The only way that I've found to truly help them is to provide them with the right questions. I can only suggest where to look, it is up to each individual to know what they're looking for and to recognize it once they find it. The Socratic method, with each question leading them deeper down the rabbit hole of their consciousness. I've tried this with friends, and the effect is astounding. Unfortunately, so far it's been so astounding that they feel there must be some trick to it and that it can't be true. But I think that this is the only way that I can really help, by providing questions rather than answers.

Edit:
This doesn't necessarily apply to people with roughly equivalent understandings and beliefs. Amongst such people I believe that eloquent logical discussions can lead to bigger and better things. It is those that are not able to understand the premises of those discussions that cannot benefit from them.

[Angela]

That may be true, but look at the value you get! You get to "hear" yourself speak outside the bones of your head, you get to see what questions attract you to propose an answer for, you get to be a mirror buddy for that person and recognize that it's really yourself you are talking to, anyway. You get to deepen your own understanding, and at the same time you get to express the deep love and compassion you have for others. How great is that?

You also may be planting the seed of something that might not fruit until sometime much later, when more pieces of the puzzle come together for that person. And even more likely, other people who are also drawn to that thread get to bathe in the mirroring wisdom that is you. What a blessing you are in those people's lives -- whether they are seeing something new in what you say, or validating their own thoughts, or just absorbing the beauty of the way you put words together (which is remarkable, by the way.)

And of course, I don't mean just you, The Cloud.

[Jennihul]

We are all here for ourselves, despite what it may seem like. But influence happens.

Jennifer

[help4me]

Ahhhh... the old adage... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

So then, do you stop leading the horse?

[blueberry]

This is very true in my experience. When I first began posting here for guidance, I was so invested and involved in my PROBLEMS that no matter how logical or seemingly helpful some people's advice was, it did little more than give me an emotional fix. I was not yet ready to drink from the water, even though I wanted enough to be enough. But obviously, looking back, enough wasn't enough at that point. I had to hit rock bottom within my dilemma to get deep enough inside the rabbit hole to let go of my old beliefs. All my efforts before that point were superficial.

I also agree about the tactic of asking the right questions. I think that's where other people can help the most. We're each on our own personal journey, with our own story, and our own truths. To simply be told what your story or truth should be is never enough. Nobody can define those things in your life except yourself. So asking the right questions, or opening a new line of inquiry or perspective about the issue is what I found most helpful. It allowed me to step outside of my limited way of thinking about the issue, and look at it in a different light - yet, with my own two eyes.

[norbert]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

for anybody else. You only have the answer for yourself.

And those answers are the highest limiting factor in your entire life.

Why do we believe that we have the answers? How could we know anything if there are 6 billion people who change the world every freakin' day in some way? (not to consider that that's humanity alone)

I am shocked by how many times I think that I have the answer or I know something and then it turns out I didn't know all the facts (how could I possibly know everything?) and I missed another precious opportunity because of my "knowledge", which is basically made up of what I've seen of the world until today.

I think we overestimate our personal knowledge and that's what makes our life seem much more limited than it actually is.

[Taikin]

I disagree. I think people simply have varying limits as to how open to influence they are. Largely, I would guess, this is due to fear. Familiarity and notions of certainty are probably the most basic and immovable forms of stability and defence we have - so some barricade their minds up for fear of what could get in, while others aren't so concerned about it and are more open to others' influences.

I used to be a deist, mostly because I just felt, in my gut, that there was a God - it just seemed to make sense somehow. Then I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and became an atheist. That's one of the most massive jumps you can make in belief, but for me it wasn't the least bit difficult - it was just a matter of 'what's the most intelligent conclusion?'. There was very little emotion involved.

On the other hand when I watched Fight Club for the first time at 15, or around about that age, I found the nihilist theme (which, I know, the writer says isn't really there) very disconcerting. It would be a difficult emotional hurdle for me to embrace nihilism, which, fortunately, I don't have to because existentialism, from what I understand, kind of overrules it.

I'm very open to new ideas, other people do have answers for me and, thus, we can have answers for other people - it's just a matter of how willing we all are to take these answers on board.

[mercuryrising]

I offer my experience and lessons I've learned. If a person can gain from that, good for them. If not, that's ok, too.

[jonarmis]

Basically, interactions help as it lets you notice things that are outside your personal being. You may not see your true self if not for the people around you and their thoughts about who you are although you may or may not disagree with wat they say as a whole. Point is, you come to know yourself with other people's help especially your family.

This however, holds true in instances where you are not in control of what's outside your thinking and overall perceptions. You are only answerable to yourself and no one else. You are accountable for your actions and you can 100% control how to react to people surrounding you, but you cannot control how they react to you and your actions. As a consequence, you can only control yourself and you alone can answer your questions and solve your problems... and no one else.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Angela

That may be true, but look at the value you get! You get to "hear" yourself speak outside the bones of your head, you get to see what questions attract you to propose an answer for, you get to be a mirror buddy for that person and recognize that it's really yourself you are talking to, anyway. You get to deepen your own understanding, and at the same time you get to express the deep love and compassion you have for others. How great is that?

So true.

Debating, especially, is the fastest and way to gain depth of understanding. And I just enjoy arguing about stuff too.

[The Cloud]

I'm glad that this got such a good response. I believe that there is a balance, between answers and questions, and it was trying to provide too many answers without asking enough questions that was bothering me. Yes, providing an answer can open somebody up for understanding things in a different way, but so does asking the right questions and letting them figure it out for themselves. So I'm going for a healthy mix of the two, using whichever seems to be the most important or applicable to the situation.

[DayInTheLife]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

We are all here for ourselves, despite what it may seem like. But influence happens.

Jennifer

Very well put.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

I'm glad that this got such a good response. I believe that there is a balance, between answers and questions, and it was trying to provide too many answers without asking enough questions that was bothering me. Yes, providing an answer can open somebody up for understanding things in a different way, but so does asking the right questions and letting them figure it out for themselves. So I'm going for a healthy mix of the two, using whichever seems to be the most important or applicable to the situation.

I believe that we already know all there is to know. It is a matter of revealing that knowledge which comes through asking the right questions. So I agree with you.

My dad helps a lot of people in his avocation. He told me that people give him the answer when they ask the question, he just acts like a mirror. When someone says the answer, it becomes a part of the experience of living as opposed to just a whisper in our thoughts.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

We are all here for ourselves, despite what it may seem like. But influence happens.

Jennifer

We are all here for us. The self is just a consequential result of that.

[Nicketas]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

for anybody else. You only have the answer for yourself.

I've been realizing this more and more of late. Giving people answers, no matter how eloquently stated and logically argued, accomplishes virtually nothing in terms of helping them. Until somebody comes to a personal understanding independently, the answer means nothing. Only once this independent understanding has been achieved does the answer have any meaning.

So I am beginning to believe that telling somebody why their beliefs are wrong and explaining what is wrong with them and proposing a belief that doesn't encounter that problem is next to useless. Only once they fundamentally understand the belief will they realize that you were right (provided you were), and by that time they no longer need your explanation. I've been posting long involved answers to many people's questions on why they are so miserable and what they can change their beliefs to in order to not be so miserable, and I'm beginning to think that it has no real benefit beyond improving my typing skills. The same thing applies to my interactions with real people; no matter how clearly I state my point it just doesn't penetrate.

So people have to find their own answers. The only way that I've found to truly help them is to provide them with the right questions. I can only suggest where to look, it is up to each individual to know what they're looking for and to recognize it once they find it. The Socratic method, with each question leading them deeper down the rabbit hole of their consciousness. I've tried this with friends, and the effect is astounding. Unfortunately, so far it's been so astounding that they feel there must be some trick to it and that it can't be true. But I think that this is the only way that I can really help, by providing questions rather than answers.

Edit:
This doesn't necessarily apply to people with roughly equivalent understandings and beliefs. Amongst such people I believe that eloquent logical discussions can lead to bigger and better things. It is those that are not able to understand the premises of those discussions that cannot benefit from them.

"MY LEG IS BROKEN!"

"You need to see a doctor"

"yeahhh but but but".

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

So I am beginning to believe that telling somebody why their beliefs are wrong and explaining what is wrong with them and proposing a belief that doesn't encounter that problem is next to useless. Only once they fundamentally understand the belief will they realize that you were right (provided you were), and by that time they no longer need your explanation. I've been posting long involved answers to many people's questions on why they are so miserable and what they can change their beliefs to in order to not be so miserable, and I'm beginning to think that it has no real benefit beyond improving my typing skills. The same thing applies to my interactions with real people; no matter how clearly I state my point it just doesn't penetrate.

I think you have a belief that is wrong here. And I'm going to practice my typing to tell you why but it's probably not going to penetrate. just kidding...

but seriously, most answers are trying to help people look at their beliefs, or other ways to see something. and at some level the issue of holding onto a belief that isn't working is really the core issue. If the answer helps expose a tighly held belief, it may help.

The answer doesn't even have to say what to believe. I don't think a good or workable answer would have to be proposing another belief.

However just pointing out the belief is not the fix either. It always comes down to letting go of the belief, perhaps. And the core belief to let go of is that one would be better to not "hold" a belief at all.

But maybe I too am "holding" this belief that one must let go of belief. That once one can be flexible about what to believe, there aren't going to be many questions about personal issues.

I mean, a personal issue is usually about beliving something that one doesn't need to believe, I think.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

...most answers are trying to help people look at their beliefs, or other ways to see something. and at some level the issue of holding onto a belief that isn't working is really the core issue. If the answer helps expose a tighly held belief, it may help.

Perhaps you are correct, and the purpose of the answer is not to propose a new belief, but simply to negate the old one. Asking questions is one way to go about it, since ultimately there will be questions that cannot be answered and thus beliefs that cannot be proven. However, simply deconstructing the belief may also be helpful, I don't know.

I think it's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish. Sometimes a man that knows how to fish just needs a little extra food to sustain him when he's not catching anything. Other times the man needs to be shown how to bait the hook and put it in the water. Simply disproving or deconstructing the belief issue may be all that is necessary for the man that knows how to fish. But the man that keeps sticking his thumb on the hook might need to be shown how to think before realizing they can do it themselves.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

I think it's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching him to fish. Sometimes a man that knows how to fish just needs a little extra food to sustain him when he's not catching anything. Other times the man needs to be shown how to bait the hook and put it in the water. Simply disproving or deconstructing the belief issue may be all that is necessary for the man that knows how to fish. But the man that keeps sticking his thumb on the hook might need to be shown how to think before realizing they can do it themselves.

Smiling at your elaboration of that saying, that I'm a fan of.

That saying usually ends with - (regarding teaching someone to fish) then you "feed him for a lifetime". So then we all would hope that is possible - to either show or explain that one shouldn't stick the hook in their fingers. lol