A Viscious Lightworker?

[Alfonso Crawford]

I think I've figured something out. I may be an angry individual, but that doensn't need to conflict with me being a nice guy. My question is wether or not love and anger can coexist, in your opinion. I think of my approach like with old-school-parenting: a beating may be savage, but it's only given to better the recipient.

Do I just not get the concept of lightworking? All of the other lightworkers I see are really nice, and I'm all mean.

[Christian223]

My father is a nice guy, but he is also an angry individual, the result is that he ends up doing things wich arent so nice for anyone, so by personal experience i say that anger is oposite to love, anger really nakes you do bad things to you and the people around you, so i recommend you to see the source of your anger and get rid of itm try EFT in the link at my signaturem that mught help, and good luck.

[Holistic Star]

A beating? A beating? A beating?

Are we talking fists, kicking, iron bars?


Seriously? You think this is love?


There are a miriad of ways to discipline children without physical violence and humiliation. You can discipline with love and respect by setting clear boundaries, being consistent with consequences (like a naughty step not a beating!) and praising and showing love at every opportunity. For god's sake just watch an episode of SuperNanny to see how shouting at and hitting other people doesn't work, compared to love and kind and firm guidance.


Anger isn't wrong as such, but physical violence against others is wrong.
I'm not saying you aren't a nice person, but you really need to look at your anger and what you need to work through. What triggers it? What makes you angry and why? What are the consequences for you? How does it affect your relationships with others? When you are angry are you in control? How does that feel for you? Is that what you want from your life?

[Alfonso Crawford]

The premise is simple: when reason has not worked or obviously will not work, apply force to motivate the desired behavior via primal fear. At first blush, the method seems negative; but I think otherwise.

If the recipient of the beating is only beaten as to improve the "victim's" life and attitude, then how is the beating not loving? Any decent parent would know to balance the violence with compassion, as to show that the acts are an isolated incidences; mine did. "I love you, and you know I love you; but you also know that what you did was plain stupid."

Logically, I ought to have done my chores, etc. because my life would be easier, but I didn't think of things like that when I was a little kid. Nowadays, I can see a mess and I could rationalize cleaning, but I don't really need to--"it's just what you're supposed to do," I say to myself. You could argue about imparting bad morals through violence, but one could just as well be tricked by the malicious among us with silver tongues: the giver of the knowledge is pivotal.

What feelings do you feel when confronted with a problem? (Neutrality is superior in all scenarios; but I doubt everyone here is yet so perfect.) Some people get excited at a new challenge; others drop into deep contemplation; I get angry. I'm not completely succumbing to the feeling, but I still let myself feel it. I've been productive, helpful, and supportive in the past, and it's all been when while pissed off: it's just how I do things. Why is anger so bad?

You're confusing "being emotional" with "emotional excess." If you're happy, people think you're cheery; be too happy, and they'll think you're stark raving mad (that's the impression I'm told I give off when I start laughing near-hysterically in public at a funny thought or dance to a tune in my head ). Be melancholy, and you'll be inclined to probe the darker centers of your mind; be too melancholy, and you'll kill yourself. Be angry, and you'll be stronger and more intense than usual; be too angry, and things'll get bloody. The level to which you give yourself up to your emotions makes all the difference. At moderate levels, all emotions are pretty much equal in terms of "good" or "bad."

[Jennihul]

Why have you chosen to define yourself as mean and angry? What are you getting out of it? What are you protecting?

It is afterall, just a choice.

Jennifer

[ticktockclok]

Be a darkworker. It's excellent.

[Alfonso Crawford]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

Why have you chosen to define yourself as mean and angry? What are you getting out of it? What are you protecting?

It is afterall, just a choice.

Jennifer

What do I gain? I gain... whatever it is I desire! I get angry, I get %*#@ done, then I'm happy again. I've "defined myself as mean and angry" because, looking back, I'm mean and angry alot of the time. (This isn't to say that I don't have a capacity for niceness. )

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

No matter where you go, you are what you are, player:
And you can try to change, but that's just the top-layer.

I could put in the time to really change, but... why? I'm attracted to the peacefulness that'd come from surrounding myself with more positive energies and denouncing my negativity, yes; but I like the rush of anger too much; and how could I truly embrace that new life if I knew it was at the cost of shunning such a large part of my own nature? Halving myself certainly isn't a sound way to take the full brunt of this mess called life.

Why is negativity so looked down upon, eh? One can't have light without shadow. Being completely within the one side doesn't seem very fun--and is more work (both to achieve and sustain) than I'm willing to put in, anyway.

Originally Posted by ticktockclok

Be a darkworker. It's excellent.

No thanks. I tried for a while, and found that I'm just too much of a softy, deep down. Try putting an all-you-can-eat Chinese-food-buffet out of business with one marathon pig-out-session. It's equally excellent.

[ticktockclok]

If you understand subjective reality, then you know that believing is seeing. Because you believe you are angry, you will be angry. Best way to change the anger is to change your beliefs. Change your beliefs through self-hypnosis or the "Belief" paraliminal.

[Alfonso Crawford]

Originally Posted by ticktockclok

If you understand subjective reality, then you know that believing is seeing. Because you believe you are angry, you will be angry. Best way to change the anger is to change your beliefs. Change your beliefs through self-hypnosis or the "Belief" paraliminal.

Why should I? I like my anger.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by Alfonso Crawford

The premise is simple: when reason has not worked or obviously will not work, apply force to motivate the desired behavior via primal fear.

Too bad fear motivation is not particularly effective as a long-term strategy. Sure it gets the job done in the short-term, but people will feel resentful, be looking to see what they can get away with, and not necessarily give their best effort.

Why is anger bad? Well, let me ask if you like to feel angry? Is it a good feeling? To me and to most people anger does not feel good. I mean, it feels better than depression or defeat, but worse than peace or joy. Also, I will ultimately regret it if I say something hurtful in the heat of the moment. Anger clouds my judgment and makes me less effective in dealing with and persuading people.

One more thing, I don't think anger is as bad when it is a choice. If you can take that second to pause before getting angry and consciously choose whether you want to be angry or not at that moment, this is better than just reacting to a situation without thought.

[Alfonso Crawford]

When manipulating fear for good, you must take time to impress the logic of the lesson: that's why, after the violence, you take the child aside and reassure them that you do love them, and tell them why you did what you did. My parents always did.

Do I like to feel angry? Hellz yeah, I do! If I say something that hurts someone, I'm not going to regret it all that much, unless the person I hurt was useful to me; in which case my remorse isn't very sincere, of course. Why would I keep someone around me whom I harbor such deep loathing for, eh? That's just dumb.

"Feels better than...?" Why do some emotions feel better than others? Why not embrace all of them? Cry yourself a river! Break something if you're feeling it! Being happy all the time is a monotonous drag for me.

[Old Soul]

well my FIL is not a nice guy......... he infects a nasty sting, but what makes him a nasty guy is he is unable to say " they are nice, I am not"

[Jennihul]

Dude...

I think you are toying with us.


Jennifer

[Alfonso Crawford]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

Dude...

I think you are toying with us.


Jennifer

I have a penchant for playing with minds (a sharp one, you are), but I assure that the heart of my argument is sincere. I believe that one's love of and desire to help humanity can be conveyed through anger. Furthermore, I don't see why some emotions are considered bad while others are considered good; but I ought to bring this argument up on the emotional mastery-board.

(I wish also to say that I do greatly enjoy the moments of lucidity which usually come after emotional periods, during which I reflect on the feelings I'm coming out of and how I can learn from them. I'm slowly progressing towards the "monotonous bore" of wisdom and control, but I'm not going to deny that the foolishness doesn't have a spot of fun to it.)

In regards to "viscious lightworking," consider this scenario:

Me: I want you to have this cake I baked for you.
You: No; I couldn't take that from you....
Me: Take the cake.
You: I couldn't--
Me: Take the cake.
You: Uh--
Me: Now!
You: Ah!
Me: What?
You: *whimper*
Me: ???

I'm being silly, but I'm not joking. I thought for a while that this approach made me a darkworker, but I noticed the underlying theme that I wasn't forcing the cake onto you for my benefit, but actually for yours. I wanted to see you happy from enjoying the delicious cake. Once I seperated the fundament (sp?) from the aesthetic (sp?), I decided to inquire this forum about other stances on the idea.

[Jennihul]

Originally Posted by Alfonso Crawford

I believe that one's love of and desire to help humanity can be conveyed through anger. Furthermore, I don't see why some emotions are considered bad while others are considered good; but I ought to bring this argument up on the emotional mastery-board.

Then, with respect, you have a great deal to learn about life, relating and emotions. I agree that people should seek a balance in emotions, not considering one bad or one good insofar as one is feeling them. They all have value. But you aren't just feeling them. You are sharing them in an interaction with others. Anger IS a weapon, in that circumstance.

In regards to "viscious lightworking," consider this scenario:

Let's start by learning to spell vicious.

I'm being silly, but I'm not joking. I thought for a while that this approach made me a darkworker, but I noticed the underlying theme that I wasn't forcing the cake onto you for my benefit, but actually for yours. I wanted to see you happy from enjoying the delicious cake.

This is a control and superiority issue. You do not have the power to decide other's enjoyment. Forcing. Say the word. Ponder it's meaning. This is a rape of someone's humanity on an emotional level. Assuming that their choice is less than your choice for them. It's hijacking their autonomy. What's good about that?

Jennifer

[Alfonso Crawford]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

Let's start by learning to spell vicious.

Stupid English! Puttin' letters where they don't belong, and leaving 'em out in other words so you never where to put what! No matter how many times I spell "occasion," I always have to pause. I just can't win, I tell ya...

Originally Posted by Jennihul

Anger IS a weapon, in that circumstance.

Frankly, sometimes weapons are necessary.

The reasoning behind the rape is that a momentary loss of autonomy is nothing compared to cake. If one strongly believes in order as I do (on certain levels), then hijacking is fully justified. (Please, for the love of God, keep in mind that I wouldn't literally force a frigging cake onto someone. )

I agree with your sentiments on allowing someone to keep their humanity... to a degree. After a point, there is a line that simply isn't crossed: we all have our own determinations of that point. Some protect their line with compassion, communcation, etc., whereas I protect mine with force, power, etc. If I'm protecting my line under the belief that we're all better off without a line-crossing, I'm a lightworker, right?

I'm told that I'm a little abraisive(sp?) with people, so you may have a point with me having quite alot to learn; but why ought I even have to surround myself with people whom test me so much? (Let's exclude people whom test me for intellectually developmental reasons (such as... you ).)

[emeraldbaby]

Alfonso,

Your post touched so many raw nerves, and I got more and more riled up as I read along. So, does that give me a reason to hurt you? After all, according to you, we can all arbitrarily define some line that others cannot cross, and if they do, hurt them in some way so they get the message (then tell them it was for their own good).

I went through a few years of corporeal punishment in primary school. I was caned for things like spelling mistakes. I resented my teachers INCREDBILY DEEPLY for a very long time. I thought it was a violation my person. But, oh, hey, it's so important to spell correctly and not run around in the corridor! so important and conducive to my well-being, that I ought to be hurt for it!

what about you just explain your motivation and your expectations to people first, so they understand where you're coming from? what about learning to inspire?

my father is a true lightworker. He's a very successful businessman, very busy, capable, intelligent. From a very poor background too. He does not use anger to get what he wants. He inspires people, he sets examples, to the point that people tell my mum and myself that they wish my dad was their partner/parent. He worries what would happen to the company if he retires, so he's trying his best to ensure his employees' future before he leaves. And when people don't fulfill his expections, he understands their limitations, says: "I was once at that level too". RESULT: people bend over backwards to make him happy, because he doesn't force people to make him happy AND people feel safe and respected around him.

My brother is working for an angry, abusive boss. The boss is a brilliant men, but his anger has caused a superfast turnover at his company. There's no loyalty, and he spends his time interviewing new employees. He of course, blames everybody but himself. According to him, he's really reasonable. HAHA

I was an angry person (still am, in part, of course). I think people who use anger do it not just because they like it and it gets things done. They HAVE TO because they don't know how else to get what they want. They don't know how to inspire others, to connect with others and so to receive what is WILLINGLY GIVEN.

I'm going to take your cake example literally, because last week I received so many cakes I didn't know what to do with them. Did you consider that before forcing a 'gift' onto someone? This example shows you don't just 'protect your line'. You actively infringe other people's. If I was my old angry self, irresponsible of my speech and actions, and you actually raised your voice with me, I'd chuck it in your face and tell you to disappear from my life because I don't need ABUSIVE CONTROL FREAKS around me. Now I just find people like you kinda amusing, then I'll give that cake to someone else.

btw, since I'm still venting...my friend, who sounds like you, says he is 'training' his gf in household chores. There is only one standard - his high, exactly standard, and if it isn't met he glares and yells, because she needs to be 'trained' to do things properly. So what if he tells his gf he loves her? It's all in his head. The reality is he places getting his way over his gf's feelings. How do I know, because she's confused and hurt and everyone wants her to leave him. I don't hear one person say - "hey, you crossed his arbitrary line, so you get treated worse than a dog, u deserve it".

So you don't care if you hurt people? especially if they are not useful to you? Then to me, you're not a lightworker. To me a lightworker sees connections between all beings, understands people improve with time, and will HELP and not hinder their development.

Your basis for anger is just your arbitrary judgment, based on personal likes and dislikes. Haven't you had people imposing their values and anger on you for reasons you find ridiculous? For all you know, they find their anger useful and reasonable.

I'm also from a country oppressed by threats of violence. So I don't buy the whole - "you don't know what's good for you, we the one party state/military junta will look after you, and let you keep 50% humanity as a bonus".

let other people be and don't give yourself excuses for hurting them. Read Angela's posts and learn to be responsible. At the very least, I hope you reexamine the merits of your principles, and ask yourself, is it absolutely true that your principles are the only good ones and that everybody must go your way?

[Alfonso Crawford]

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

Alfonso,

Your post touched so many raw nerves, and I got more and more riled up as I read along. So, does that give me a reason to hurt you? After all, according to you, we can all arbitrarily define some line that others cannot cross, and if they do, hurt them in some way so they get the message (then tell them it was for their own good).

Originally Posted by Alfonso Crawford

(Let's exclude people whom test me for intellectually developmental reasons ...)

Even I'm capable of reason, you know--impossible as that seems.

Controlling yourself is almost always imperitive, even when angry; and anger isn't just physical violence. One look at the S&M-community'll show you that feelings can be expressed in all sorts of (sometimes scary) ways.

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

I went through a few years of corporeal punishment in primary school. I was caned for things like spelling mistakes. I resented my teachers INCREDBILY DEEPLY for a very long time. I thought it was a violation my person. But, oh, hey, it's so important to spell correctly and not run around in the corridor! so important and conducive to my well-being, that I ought to be hurt for it!

That's called "building character." How much did you care about spelling before primary school? How much effort do you think you would've put into your spelling-skills if you weren't punished as you were? I know that I'm not the only stickler for things like spelling (I know that I screw up, but I do try to get words right. Feel free to blow up at me for any error you see.), and your teachers just gave you a physical interpretation of the consequences society has for people with poor grasps of the written word. Expect no pity from me.

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

what about you just explain your motivation and your expectations to people first, so they understand where you're coming from? what about learning to inspire?

my father is a true lightworker. He's a very successful businessman, very busy, capable, intelligent. From a very poor background too. He does not use anger to get what he wants. He inspires people, he sets examples, to the point that people tell my mum and myself that they wish my dad was their partner/parent. He worries what would happen to the company if he retires, so he's trying his best to ensure his employees' future before he leaves. And when people don't fulfill his expections, he understands their limitations, says: "I was once at that level too". RESULT: people bend over backwards to make him happy, because he doesn't force people to make him happy AND people feel safe and respected around him.

My brother is working for an angry, abusive boss. The boss is a brilliant men, but his anger has caused a superfast turnover at his company. There's no loyalty, and he spends his time interviewing new employees. He of course, blames everybody but himself. According to him, he's really reasonable. HAHA

I explain myself up front by being myself full-bore during my introduction. People know exactly what they're getting, when they meet me... except for maybe y'all. I've really come out of left field since my introduction, haven't I?

I find angry, unrelenting people inspiring. When a leader works as though all Hell shall let loose on Earth upon failure, I bend over backwards in my work... assuming that I respect the work, of course. I've worked for very nice and understanding people, too, and've busted my ass for them as well.

You mock the boss in your example; but how much time have you really put into seeing things from his perspective?

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

I was an angry person (still am, in part, of course). I think people who use anger do it not just because they like it and it gets things done. They HAVE TO because they don't know how else to get what they want. They don't know how to inspire others, to connect with others and so to receive what is WILLINGLY GIVEN.

I'll use drugs as my example here. Say you have a friend that needs rehab. If your friend doesn't take your pleas seriously, and taking the time to convince may not be viable, what are you to do? What you are to do is break a few bones o' their's(sp?) and put them in a rehab that they can't escape from--nor would want to, considering what you'd do to them if they did. You gotta do what you gotta do. The idea is that they'll thank you later.

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

I'm going to take your cake example literally, because last week I received so many cakes I didn't know what to do with them. Did you consider that before forcing a 'gift' onto someone? This example shows you don't just 'protect your line'. You actively infringe other people's. If I was my old angry self, irresponsible of my speech and actions, and you actually raised your voice with me, I'd chuck it in your face and tell you to disappear from my life because I don't need ABUSIVE CONTROL FREAKS around me. Now I just find people like you kinda amusing, then I'll give that cake to someone else.

I've thrown away my entire life as I knew it in order to rid myself of hurtful control; it was when I quit school in Florida and moved to Pennsylvania to live with my brother. Again--why surround yourself with people that hurt you? The cake-example cannot be taken seriously with me, since I'd be the fat bastard that I am and keep the cake for myself at the first chance I get. Why would you ever possibly consider excessive cake a bad thing? Cake is wonderful thing, and must be eaten... desu*.

[* - "Desu" is an internet/anime-joke that usually goes, "It is delicious ______ (originally cake) ~ desu. You must eat it ~ desu." Don't ask me how it's funny.]

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

btw, since I'm still venting...my friend, who sounds like you, says he is 'training' his gf in household chores. There is only one standard - his high, exactly standard, and if it isn't met he glares and yells, because she needs to be 'trained' to do things properly. So what if he tells his gf he loves her? It's all in his head. The reality is he places getting his way over his gf's feelings. How do I know, because she's confused and hurt and everyone wants her to leave him. I don't hear one person say - "hey, you crossed his arbitrary line, so you get treated worse than a dog, u deserve it".

Whoah, whoah, whoah!

I do not condone the behavior of the boyfriend in your scenario! Why has he not eaten his own teeth yet, anyway?! Get on that! That boy was not raised right, and needs to be straightened out; and I know that you agree with me.

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

So you don't care if you hurt people? especially if they are not useful to you? Then to me, you're not a lightworker. To me a lightworker sees connections between all beings, understands people improve with time, and will HELP and not hinder their development.

If someone's just going to raise my blood-pressure, then why shed tears when I hurt them back? Even a lightworker must be a little selfish. I know that everything's connected and all that; and if my node on the all-network pops, alot of other people are going to feel it hard: I'm sure as **** not going to sit back and let that happen.

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

Your basis for anger is just your arbitrary judgment, based on personal likes and dislikes. Haven't you had people imposing their values and anger on you for reasons you find ridiculous? For all you know, they find their anger useful and reasonable.

I'm also from a country oppressed by threats of violence. So I don't buy the whole - "you don't know what's good for you, we the one party state/military junta will look after you, and let you keep 50% humanity as a bonus".

You don't understand where my line is, do you? Societal oppression crosses my line. Rape crosses my line. Trashing my house when you came over uninvited crosses my line (and, oh, has this part of my line been crossed lately!). Being disagreeable does not cross my line, if you'll let me leave your presence. A great deal of freedoms are good for people, but that doesn't mean that theft and murder are okay: you catch my meaning? I do feel bad for your country, and I hope the U.N. or somebody is doing something for it.

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

let other people be and don't give yourself excuses for hurting them. Read Angela's posts and learn to be responsible. At the very least, I hope you reexamine the merits of your principles, and ask yourself, is it absolutely true that your principles are the only good ones and that everybody must go your way?

Must everyone go my way? .... Yes. I don't think wanton stealing, theft, rape, oppression, disrespect of property, etc. ought to go unchecked. I will admit that my approach's weak-point is that any flawed value-system can be imposed through it: I accept this weakness, as I work to prevent harmful values from wreaking havok upon my environment, and I turn to those of compassionate reasoning to guide me.

Living and letting live is well and good; but what of the inevitable day when a force comes to control you? Do you let them? What are your options? I chose the option of fighting, and I haven't been lead wrong yet.