How Do I Not Pay Income Taxes And Not Go To Jail?

[RT Wolf]

Originally Posted by Restrikted

I'm glad I wasn't old enough to vote with the 04 election. But I am now, and unfortunately, if you want to vote you must choose who the least corrupt and least worst person is. So, I'm probably not going to vote unless there is someone that I genuinely like.

The least you can do now is to vote for the least corrupt or least worst person. It's well within your rights to vote for someone so that you can NOT have someone worse in office. The Liberals up here in Canada lost partly because people were voting against them, not necessarily for the policies of the people they actually voted for.

Ree, I hope you voted in the last election if you were able to. In case you didn't, your lack of action played a part in the election of Bush.

PS, this thread seems to veered off course from the original point, which was more politico-economic to begin with.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Ree, I hope you voted in the last election if you were able to. In case you didn't, your lack of action played a part in the election of Bush.

PS, this thread seems to veered off course from the original point, which was more politico-economic to begin with.

Of course I voted. Haven't missed an election since I turned 18. And you're right about this thread going off course. Sorry if I helped do that.

[Eggzachery]

Uhm.. Don't get caught. You're not likely to change as large a policy as that because it doesn't suit you. So you can do as someone else has already suggested and move to a country with a more favorable tax structure.

[SeriousKidding.com]

Become Halliburton or a Big Oil company, or a President or Vice President of the United States.

[andrew]

What do you mean 'don't get caught'? How is it that you have to be AFRAID of your government, and esp be afraid of not doing something voluntary?

This is NOT about NOT paying taxes. We all pay taxes, and it's fine because it goes to the community. But income tax is different, in that it DOES NOT GO TO ANYTHING CONTRIBUTIVE. It goes to pay debt of the government. It's like paying for a total stranger's credit card, just because you make money. It makes no sense at all.

Laws should be for protecting people, not bullying them. You'd spend less time in jail for sex crimes than you would for tax evasion. How does that help? Jails are to keep dangerous people away from society, not to instill fear on people to pay taxes that they shouldn't even be paying.

[Brutha]

This is NOT about NOT paying taxes. We all pay taxes, and it's fine because it goes to the community. But income tax is different, in that it DOES NOT GO TO ANYTHING CONTRIBUTIVE. It goes to pay debt of the government. It's like paying for a total stranger's credit card, just because you make money. It makes no sense at all.

If no one would pay income tax, other tax money would have to be used to pay the debt.

[elai]

Well, the IRS has given a reply, it a public document called "the truth about frivolous tax arguments". See Income Tax Page for counter arguments to Russo's biased film (and a link to the document). Read wikipedia also for an analysis of the film. It's legally mandatory in the US to pay income taxes folks, and if somehow someone found a legal loophole to abolish income tax, it would be patched up quicker through presidential, legislative & state decree quicker than any other law you have ever seen.

Governments exist to tax and if you go against that in a significant way while still staying in their jurisdiction they will try to get you while even going against their own law's and procedures to do so.

And for people saying "who will take my garbage", or "who will pay for roads or schools", "how about police and firemen?!?" why don't you just PAY for those services and not have to use government monopolies & taxation? Instead of tax you have choice. Garbage services can compete, transportation services can compete more significantly, and all of those other services and options you want you can choose. Don't want to support the Iraq(or Vietnam, or Korean, or Cuban, or Specific Drug, or Iran, or Somalia, or Yugoslavia, or so on and so on) war? Well you get to DECIDE by not paying for it. Want to live in an area that doesn't have military defense? Well you get to decide that and run the risk of it. Want to pay for a military service that defensive only? You get to decide that too!! It's micro-optimized democracy in an information age that can handle it!

(BTW, if you want to live w/o income tax, move to a jurisdiction without one! Or one that is easily avoidable. There is also that perpetual traveler trick where you are a tourist in every single jurisdiction you travel in and because of that, you get the legal red carpet treatment and don't have to pay taxes. For the income you create, you play each countries laws against each other and cherry pick the one's with good tax & banking laws for your income & banking. International business do it, so why can't you?)

[1000feet]

Originally Posted by elai

And for people saying "who will take my garbage", or "who will pay for roads or schools", "how about police and firemen?!?" why don't you just PAY for those services and not have to use government monopolies & taxation? Instead of tax you have choice. Garbage services can compete, transportation services can compete more significantly, and all of those other services and options you want you can choose. Don't want to support the Iraq(or Vietnam, or Korean, or Cuban, or Specific Drug, or Iran, or Somalia, or Yugoslavia, or so on and so on) war? Well you get to DECIDE by not paying for it. Want to live in an area that doesn't have military defense? Well you get to decide that and run the risk of it. Want to pay for a military service that defensive only? You get to decide that too!! It's micro-optimized democracy in an information age that can handle it!

You missed one - I DEMAND competing roads so I can have a choice in how I leave my house. And why should there only be one major highway between two cities? If the government can't make one that goes in a straight line someone should be free to do it more efficiently.

[Brutha]

Another one is competing armed forces (police). You pay protection money at the mafia clan that is most effient in your area.

[1000feet]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Another one is competing armed forces (police). You pay protection money at the mafia clan that is most effient in your area.

If we have competing police forces, why not have competing laws? It would be the ultimate test of what's really a fair law.

[Brutha]

In some Muslim communities in Europe you have competing law (since the catholic church can pass laws, it is reasonable to call the rules that an imam uses also laws).
On the one hand you have the laws that are passed by the country. The result is that a muslim couple that divorces and goes to the iman (instead of going to court), gets one ruling from the imam and perhaps afterwards another ruling from the court (if someone doesn't agree with the ruling of the iman the can call the court).

Feel free to call that fair.

[geneseecrest]

No one has ever won a court case saying that taxing U.S. citizens is illegal. In every country there is taxation system. When, as a soldier, I was stationed in Germany, my German friends complained that 50% of their wages was going to taxes. Of course, my German friends thought we Americans had it pretty good because our federal income tax is lower than theirs. There is a lot of hysteria among certain groups that our country is run by "fascist", but even though people like Alec Baldwin "threaten" to leave the country, not many people really do. Millions pour across our southern border every year, but not many Americans defect to Mexico, Cuba or Russia.

How about water, I think it would be great if we didn't have to pay for clean water and sewage. We could just collect our own water, treat it or not if we like and thow our sewage out in the streets. Actually since I don't like streets and couldn't afford one anyway, I'll just throw my sewage and trash in front of my house where the street would have been. Luckily for me since I am not paying for police or a legal system, I will not have to worry about any legal problems arising from my excercising my freedom of choice.

[Chinese Dragon]

After watching that movie, I almost want to move to a different country.

I couldn't care less about the national debt. They're doing to us what Britain did to us in the 1700s.

[elai]

The whole idea of vastly varying independent states that competed on their legal incentives and differences and that one could easily travel between was one of the original legal philosophies of the USA that eventually shifted bit by bit to a more centralized federalist system.

And if you guys cannot even think of how independent garbage collection services that work and other possible alternatives to government monopolies and have to resort to sarcasm then you really need to exercise your imaginations.

[1000feet]

Originally Posted by Brutha

In some Muslim communities in Europe you have competing law (since the catholic church can pass laws, it is reasonable to call the rules that an imam uses also laws).
On the one hand you have the laws that are passed by the country. The result is that a muslim couple that divorces and goes to the iman (instead of going to court), gets one ruling from the imam and perhaps afterwards another ruling from the court (if someone doesn't agree with the ruling of the iman the can call the court).

Feel free to call that fair.

I'm talking about real competition - let each person choose which laws they follow. It's the only way to get the best result.

[Brutha]

And if you guys cannot even think of how independent garbage collection services

They questions is whether independent garbage collection services could do it more effective than state controled ones.

But inner city roads and police are way more problematic.

I'm talking about real competition - let each person choose which laws they follow. It's the only way to get the best result.

It is real competition.
People choose not to follow the law that is made by the country, and bear the consequences of their actions.

If you have multiple armed entities who compete against each other they use their arms to compete, why shouldn't they?

[ThoughtAddict]

I work for a tax attorney.

Taxes... well... I don't like them. I hate seeing a little guy stuck with taxes. If I'm working on a corporate return, it doesn't bother me. A farmer who is really getting stuck by the government is gonna be a fight with me. Luckily, the attorney thinks the same.

That said, taxes allow good things to be done. If you want the government to have any teeth, they've gotta be able to get things done. Supplies are needed. Labor costs. People to sit in the office and make sure people get paid. People to make sure the jobs are getting done. People to count and collect the money.

I agree that the US government is suffering from inefficiency and bad priorities. Unfortunately, the priorities may be necessary at this point to prevent collapse. The current US debt makes it such that we aren't going to get out... nor are we really planning on it. The current plan is to continue growth and make the world dependent upon us. If the dollar collapsing means that the countries dependent upon us will take a severe hit, and we're powerful enough that our favor or disfavor can cause a severe hit, and calling in the debt means that the dollar collapses and you gain disfavor... well... then people aren't likely to call in the debt. Or, if you can continue expansion to the extent that you can just go further into debt without a deadline to pay... again, the debt isn't as big a deal. I really doubt the politicians are all that concerned. In the power games being played, this really isn't an issue.

So the US tax money going to military power could be diverted to pay off debt, but the cost would be losing the military prowess that keeps the US in (what used to be) a prime position. I'm yet to see a convincing proposal that has both.

As far as taxes in the abstract... well... I favor giving the government some power. Ultimately, the government has to answer to the people (*ahem* if they make it answer, that is), and in general the corruption I've seen here doesn't strike me as out of line with the corruption I've seen... well... just about everywhere. What truly angers me is that the corruption here, when exposed, doesn't cause outrage. If it did, our situation would be improved.

Would we be better served by abolishing corrupt government altogether?
I doubt it. We'd probably just have corrupt corporations in their place. I'd rather know that there's a judge, somewhere, who might be kind and wise enough to strike down the corruption than know that my powerlessness is pure powerlessness, and nobody's gonna care. Frankly, I sleep better at night knowing that my safety is contracted to a (semi-) neutral party than to the highest bidder. I don't fear some imaginary SafetyCorp Industries death squad coming into my home and raping and killing in order to show how inefficient my Worksforme Budget Safety Company is. And I'd like to know that I can sue somebody if they harm me or expect them to receive some punishment, even though they're paying SafetyCorp Industries. Hey, I can even sue my own government if they cause material harm. That's kinda cool.

Certainly I want a better system. I'm working for a better one. In 4 years (may God will it), I'll have me an edumacation which'll learn me how to fix some of this, one small act at a time.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Restrikted

Is there any surefire method of not getting jailed for this?

Sure. Start your own country where taxes are voluntary. If you populate it with the right people that might even work...

[ludlow]

Taxes fund the existence of the government, and its authority, expressed especially through the police, military and judicial system. Without the authority of governments, money has no meaning, because there is nothing to enforce the basic framework of the economy, legal compulsion to pay debt, abide by contracts, etc etc etc. (In a complete anarchy, I guess a stable form of exchange might emerge, but you would probably get killed pretty soon, too.) So there is NO SUCH THING as "your money before tax". The very government system that your tax funds is what gives your money meaning.

[unwiser]

Yes you can avoid paying taxes and keep your freedom.

1) You could not work
2) Move to Monoco
3) You could do a job in the underground economy

taxes arent all bad. they fix the roads you drive on. Pay the police and army that protect you and taxes pay the teachers that teach you.

Originally Posted by Restrikted

So one of the things I did not like about the idea of working is that you have to pay taxes on your salary. I'm not sure exactly how much it is though. Is it like a certain percent of your paycheck they take out for income tax (I'm 18 and know nothing)? Anyway, I just watched a very interesting video that states over and over that paying income taxes in VOLUNTARY, not mandatory. The video is called Freedom To Fascism.

However, people still go to jail because they don't pay the IRS income taxes. There have been a few people who were able to successfully fight it in court, basically they just said "Show me the law that states I HAVE to pay income taxes." Naturally, I'm still afraid of not paying them when I get a job because I don't want to go to jail. Is there any surefire method of not getting jailed for this?