The Wiser Course?

[Lioness]

I posted this before but it disappeared... I would really like to get opinions because it seems like a paradox to me.

There is much value placed on having an abundance mindset, and thinking/acting "as if" you were already wealthy.

But some of the people who built the largest fortunes were also the most miserly and seemed to follow a scarcity mindset.

So is it wiser to cut expenses to the bone and watch every penny, or follow the advice of some other experts who say to focus on the big financial gains and don't worry about clipping coupons and skipping lattes?

[GregD]

Both and neither:

- When you just start from step 1 there are usually some "low hanging fruit" which are easy to identify and cut from your budget thereby reducing your costs. This could be any luxury item or subscription for example. However once these items are cut and you enter the area of core needs then its takes more and more effort to find less and less money. So I believe cut costs of "nice to have" items and stop and:

- Focus on making / earning more money, because at this point, after you have done the above, each day you spend on trying to earn more will give you a higher return on your time investment than if you spent that day trying to cut even more of your costs

[Mounds]

The way I describe the scarcity mindset is with the word, “lack”.

Last night, I went for a walk through my neighborhood. I couldn’t help but notice that each house emitted the soft glow of a plasma television. As I walked further, I began to wonder why everyone had one of these TV’s and I didn’t. When I finally got to the end of the street, I couldn’t help myself anymore. Driven by envy, I walked up to a living room window and pressed my face up against the glass. There it was, in all it’s 1080p glory. 60 inches of awesomeness, only a credit card swipe away. The missing ingredient for the life I’d always wanted. I had to have one.

So today, I went to Best Buy. I browsed the televisions, paying particular attention to price (the only measure of value, IMO). At first, I settled on a $1500 model, but as a savvy consumer, I quickly realized that this model would only be current for a couple of years. In order to keep up with technology, I would have to go with the $2500 model.

Along with my $2500 plasma screen, I was offered a $300 warranty, just in case. I graciously accepted because, after all, losing my $2500 investment would be an absolute disaster.

Although I’d beaten poverty years ago, I still had to finance the unit. It wasn’t really a big deal... Four years to pay off $2800? Lots of time!

That particular story is fiction, but it’s not far removed from real life. It started with perceived lack (“Everyone has one but me!”) and ended in real lack (I spent more money than I had).

Here are the biggest differences between the two:

Scarcity Mindset

- there’s a missing ingredient, and you know what it is
- you couldn’t stand to not having something anymore
- there’s only one way to do things
- you become adept at fooling yourself (which is the greater lack: having a negative net worth or not having the TV?)

Abundance Mindset

- as of right now, you have everything you need
- you’re happy with or without “it”
- there are many ways to do things (buy a latte everyday for $4 or buy a machine and make them for $0.30?)
- you scrutinize your purchases because you realize that less is more. Excess has an opportunity cost.

It really comes down to beliefs and habits. Change the belief and the habits will follow. They’ll balance out in a way that’s right for you. Don't allow your happiness to become attached to what you have (or your bank account).

Both small wins and big wins have merit.

Small wins tend to be consistent (The Latte Factor, subscriptions).

Big wins are inconsistent (haggling down a car deal, not buying that damn TV).

-Tim

PS. Remember this: sales people and advertising operate on the scarcity mindset. Avoid those two things as much as possible and you’ll be on your way.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Lioness

There is much value placed on having an abundance mindset, and thinking/acting "as if" you were already wealthy.

But some of the people who built the largest fortunes were also the most miserly and seemed to follow a scarcity mindset.

So is it wiser to cut expenses to the bone and watch every penny, or follow the advice of some other experts who say to focus on the big financial gains and don't worry about clipping coupons and skipping lattes?

There's a big difference between having a scarcity mindset and being smart with money.

Being smart with money means asking yourself, "Is this item going to be worth, TO ME, its price?"

Take Mounds' example of a plasma TV. If you actually like watching TV, it makes some sense to spend more on a good TV. If you don't like watching TV, then it makes no sense.

The trick is not to fall into the Joneses trap. You don't need to buy a certain kind of TV (or clothes, or watch, or house, or whatever) just because your friends or relatives mostly do.

The absolute price, in a sense, is not that relevant. I wouldn't spend $10,000 on a thing which I didn't consider as worth it. Then again I wouldn't spend $1 on a thing that I don't consider as worth it either.

[Lioness]

This makes sense:

Originally Posted by GregD

each day you spend on trying to earn more will give you a higher return on your time investment than if you spent that day trying to cut even more of your costs

Weirdness happened again here: I was going to ask royster about action towards abundance vs. actions toward wealth - but his post has disappeared. I think general abundance will lead to more satisfaction than monetary wealth.

Tim, what you're saying about "lack" applies to people who overspend or get into debt because of the scarcity mindset. What puzzles me are the Gettys and Carnegies of the world whose riches seemed to go hand in hand with a Scrooge-like cheapness. Seems to me they acted out of a sense of perpetual lack also: no amount of money was ever enough. Yet they were very successful with this mindset.

Yet we have other successful wealthy people, like some celebrity entertainers, for example, who actually enjoy their money, live high on the hog and are also very generous and charitable.

[royster]

I'm glad you got to see that post, Lioness. While I was writing it, GregD had already posted. When I read his reply, I thought I might be out of place, posting a humble reply in a business atmosphere.

But since that's how I live, I can post it again. And I welcome you to ask as you need.

I see the Abundant wealth of the universe as much more nourishing than the temporary material wealth so many clamour for. I also see the pursuit of material wealth contingent on hoarding, as opposed to sharing. To say "give it away to get it" is not the way: our intentions are the crux of the matter.

It is rumored that the Freemason creed is "You will die by your greatest deed." If I die from care and generosity, the undertaker will be unable to remove the satisfied smile from my lips.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Lioness

What puzzles me are the Gettys and Carnegies of the world whose riches seemed to go hand in hand with a Scrooge-like cheapness. Seems to me they acted out of a sense of perpetual lack also: no amount of money was ever enough. Yet they were very successful with this mindset.

You should look up Franklin Templeton.

This billionaire will stinge on overpriced meals, but donate millions to charity. It goes to illustrate what I mean. He thinks that giving millions to charity is worth it; he thinks that $12 for a chicken sandwich is ridiculous.

You will look at the sandwich example as an example of Scroogey-ness, but it's really not. It's just about a more acute awareness of value for money.

Look at Warren Buffet. One of the richest men on the planet, but he continues to live in the same old house in a backwater part of the USA that he stayed half a century ago, before he got rich. Stingy? But he gave $40 billion to charity.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Lioness

Yet we have other successful wealthy people, like some celebrity entertainers, for example, who actually enjoy their money, live high on the hog and are also very generous and charitable.

You also have these ridiculously wealthy people, literally with hundreds of millions of dollars, who manage to go bankrupt or close. Eg Michael Jackson, Elton John and Mike Tyson.

[Aminka Ozmun]

This seems to be only a kind of "semantic" paradox, like "jumbo shrimp" or, even better, half a cup of water being described variously as half-full and half-empty or Zeno's Paradox....

Do psychic powers exist? (That's the real point of the question, behind which is the struggle to reconcile the belief in intention manifestation with actual facts.) I'm agnostic on this, but I do know for myself that the mind is frighteningly powerful. I'm just not sure that it's all-powerful.

Anyway, the Buddha is said to have said that inquiring after the supernatural is besides the point of life, a distraction just like gorging on food and losing oneself in other worldly pleasures.

One of Goethe's most quoted aphorisms, about not mistaking the accidental for the intentional and vice-versa (he puts it much more beautifully, of course), also applies.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

This seems to be only a kind of "semantic" paradox, like "jumbo shrimp" or, even better, half a cup of water being described variously as half-full and half-empty or Zeno's Paradox....

Do psychic powers exist? (That's the real point of the question, behind which is the struggle to reconcile the belief in intention manifestation with actual facts.) I'm agnostic on this, but I do know for myself that the mind is frighteningly powerful. I'm just not sure that it's all-powerful.

The way I see it is that the scarcity mindset promotes decisions that lead to more scarcity. It's kind of like the saying, "What resists, persists".

Abundance works on the same principle, expect there is no resisting.

[royster]

For Lioness:

How The Law Of Abundance Works For Me

I loved your parable, Tim

[lycan]

Some people get a quick out of playing the money game. They are not playing the game to earn money so they can spend, they are playing the game because it is what they like doing. An example of this is Warren Buffet. So when they seem cheap, it's just an example of them playing their favorite game. They will sacrifice "luxuries" to play the game because to them, the game is their primary luxury. Some people collect baseball cards and some people collect stocks. Some people fine tune cars and some people fine tune businesses.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

Anyway, the Buddha is said to have said that inquiring after the supernatural is besides the point of life, a distraction just like gorging on food and losing oneself in other worldly pleasures.

You are quoting the Buddah to make a case against "inquiring after the supernatural"? lol

What is the point of life, by the way?

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by Mounds

The way I see it is that the scarcity mindset promotes decisions that lead to more scarcity. It's kind of like the saying, "What resists, persists".

Abundance works on the same principle, expect there is no resisting.

How about this:

There is no such thing as "scarcity."

There is also no such thing as "abundance."

All dichotomies disguise.

We're already part of the world, like caricatures drawn on paper are, actually, part of the paper.

I don't think there's any need for any particular mindset: "when chopping wood, chop wood; when eating rice, eat rice" (or whatever that exact saying is).

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by lycan

You are quoting the Buddah to make a case against "inquiring after the supernatural"? lol

What is the point of life, by the way?

I'm not speaking of all the intricate details involved in popularly practiced Buddhism but the core insights ("philosophy") of Buddhism. Kind of like how the Taoists speak of "school" Taoism and "temple" Taoism.

My understanding of the story is that Buddha didn't deny that there is/may be a supernatural side of things; it's just that such pursuits are distractions as blinding as any (cf. the Dr. Faustus stories)...they're besides the point of life, which, recursively, is about living, for which no "magic" is necessary.

For example, intention manifestation theories (as popularly prescribed on the web, AFAIK) appear to be about escaping the pain or even mere inconveniences of life. That's exactly opposite to what a ("true") Buddhist would counsel. Remember, Prince Gautama had all the pleasures of the world and knew nothing else. But he found the mystery of old age, sickness, and death far more captivating than any palace or princess, any empire or legacy.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

How about this:

There is no such thing as "scarcity."

There is also no such thing as "abundance."

All dichotomies disguise.

We're already part of the world, like caricatures drawn on paper are, actually, part of the paper.

I don't think there's any need for any particular mindset: "when chopping wood, chop wood; when eating rice, eat rice" (or whatever that exact saying is).

Regardless of whether we choose a mindset or not, we'll end up with a mindset! It's just the way we're wired.

Some people have the mindset that spiders are scary, everything happens to them, or that freedom is a lottery ticket away. Many of those people have never heard of the concepts we discuss here. Still, they have a mindset.

The catch is whether or not it works in your life. If it works, who cares? If it creates dissonance, do something about it!

As an example, I used to have the mindset that the Law of Attraction was baloney. Instead of leaving it at that, I became abrasive towards people who believe in LOA. When you're mindset leads to that sort of behaviour, you can be pretty sure you've got the scarcity/victim mindset going on.

Moving into an abundant/empowered mindset means that I can talk about it, I can join in on the fun, log off, and not have to practice it myself.

-Tim

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

My understanding of the story is that Buddha didn't deny that there is/may be a supernatural side of things; it's just that such pursuits are distractions as blinding as any (cf. the Dr. Faustus stories)...they're besides the point of life, which, recursively, is about living, for which no "magic" is necessary.

Possibility #1: Life is conditional. All "natural" means to sustain life fail eventualy. To attempt a supernatural means is therefore, at worst, just another dead end.

Possibility #2: Life is unconditional. No magic is necessary, but neither is anything else.

To say life is about living is to say nothing at all. There is nothing else you can do with life other than live it. The only detour from living is dying!

[Lioness]

I believe in the spirit of abundance. However, I am practical and would like money in the bank.

I read somewhere that you have to attract money into your life (not LOA, more like how you would go about attracting friends or a potential mate). Study it, respect it, pay attention to it. Hang around people who have it (if possible). Treat it well - keep your bills neat in your wallet; not all crumpled up or stuffed in a pocket. Know how much is in your wallet and in your accounts at all times.

I don't want to be obssessed with money, but I don't want to be careless about it either. It IS important.

So now I see that a scarcity mindset includes Scrooge at one end and reckless emotional spending at the other. While Scrooges do have financial success, there is no true satisfaction or happiness there.

I think I will just show a consistent interest and stewardship of money and practice a general abundance mindset.

I would love to be a fastlane person, but realistically, I know my limitations. Scratch that - I'm working on overcoming my limitations.

[Aminka Ozmun]

Tim/Mounds,

I spent some time considering how to reply because I did not want a back-and-forth that would appear as if I'm belaboring the matter. However, at the risk of seeming to proselytize, I have to respond point-for-point because these are important issues here and it seems like I should share what I've come to understand about them. Please read my reflections with the knowledge that a lot of goodwill cannot come across over an internet forum!

Originally Posted by Mounds

Regardless of whether we choose a mindset or not, we'll end up with a mindset!

The point is to be aware of one's mindset. It would appear that many New Agers (same as Christians/Hindus/etc.) are not -- not aware that they are choosing to believe in something, instead of being forced to believe in this something because it is a fact.

For example, some Jews believe that pork, shellfish, etc. are literally dirty and will somehow harm you physically. Others take it simply as a life-long test of faith. Still others understand it to be mere cultural artifacts, but which they choose to follow because such practices bind the community together. Then there are those who shrug at it all but still consider themselves Jews. See the difference?

Originally Posted by Mounds

It's just the way we're wired.

Some people have the mindset that spiders are scary, everything happens to them, or that freedom is a lottery ticket away. Many of those people have never heard of the concepts we discuss here. Still, they have a mindset.

I "believe in" the Buddhist/Taoist "no-mind." I know it for myself because I have "been" "there." It is possible to get beyond mindsets.

I know that sounds weird since it appears that I have quite a mindset here, and a rather entrenched one -- but that's the tragedy of language, where the moment you put "something" into words, you've "lost" that something ("so to speak!" Truth is, "it" was never "captured" by words in the first place so it cannot be "lost" at all)....

Originally Posted by Mounds

The catch is whether or not it works in your life. If it works, who cares? If it creates dissonance, do something about it!

This is why I have a problem with "business," and the business of "personal development" and "intention manifestation" in general: if it works, who cares?

I'm a science major, and you know, science majors love to look down on humanities majors -- and, truth to tell, the vast majority of people majoring in English or Philosophy aren't serious about those subjects, really, but imagine (and often justifiably so) an easy "A."

But neither are most science majors; they're just in it for the money, thinking they're going to be doctors or engineers -- they could care less about exploring our world and healing lives. But the funny fact is, there is so much cheating going on in the science courses! In fact, though it is really easy to b.s. your way through an essay (it's amazing how many professors just don't care), a science exam (at least at the undergraduate level, with 200 students in a lecture hall) is even easier to cheat on -- in fact, the humanities exam, with its essays, only allows but "gaming" or BSing but the science exams can be outright cheated on....

Anyway, the point is, this "if it works, who cares?" attitude is so dangerous on so many different levels...consider the temptation of Jesus (or Buddha at the cusp of enlightenment -- it's a common motif no matter the hero): you want world peace? You want a just world? Okay! I am the god of this world, power has been granted me to provide all this and more. Just bow down to me and acknowledge my suzerainty and lions shall lie down with lambs immediately! If it works, who cares??

Yes, in the language of PD/IM/etc. I have a "self-limiting belief," which is that it does matter how I arrive at the answer.

Originally Posted by Mounds

As an example, I used to have the mindset that the Law of Attraction was baloney. Instead of leaving it at that, I became abrasive towards people who believe in LOA. When you're mindset leads to that sort of behaviour, you can be pretty sure you've got the scarcity/victim mindset going on.

I used to do tarot cards and numerology. I've investigated this stuff myself already, and I mean I really studied it. I could even do a reading now, though it's been years and years since I've practiced on anyone!

So it's not like I look down on people, having been there myself. But except insofar as I recognize that I've grown beyond such escapist activities and attest to such a fact, it will seem as if I am denigrating others' belief systems.

This is why it is important to have a mind capable of subtlety and yet strong enough not to become lost in nuances.

Originally Posted by Mounds

Moving into an abundant/empowered mindset means that I can talk about it, I can join in on the fun, log off, and not have to practice it myself.

I can talk about it too, as I think you see -- but I do not feel like it is anything spectacular.

Here's a real Secret: you were already empowered. You cannot help but be empowered. That you have come to hear of this basic truth through LOA/IM auspices speaks not to their truth, just like anyone can tell you that smoking is bad without having to be a doctor.

LOA/IM speaks in terms of a freedom from. That's what philosophers call a "negative" freedom. It's a primitive freedom, one which even animals desire.

There is another freedom, another power. LOA/IM don't speak of this because it doesn't know it at all -- which is why LOA/IM efforts are focused on money, cars, and the usual (it's why no LOA/IM pitch ever talks about world peace, hunger, injustice...nope, apparently "the power of the universe" is only good enough to get you a better love, a better romantic partner...).

Anyway, here's a tip for the road (of life): if someone's making good money from it (anything spiritual), you can be sure it's false.

Why is that? Why the traditional tension between holiness and wealth -- why is it easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

There is a reason. That reason is power. Power corrupts. Like fat cells, which the body needs but too much of which will destroy the body, power is necessary -- but too much and it destroys the soul (so to speak; there is no literal "soul").

Those who make an "abundant" living repackaging spiritual truths (ah, the power of marketing, which no one ever admits to being under!) have failed the test of Jesus and Buddha (referenced above), all the holy men of myth -- they have traded the hard life of God for the peace of death.

"If it works, so what?"

That's "what."

(P.S.: It's now occurred to me that you may think I was reacting to your parable [in which case my comments can be seen as besides the point]. I wasn't. Just wanted to be clear on that. )

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by lycan

Possibility #1: Life is conditional. All "natural" means to sustain life fail eventualy. To attempt a supernatural means is therefore, at worst, just another dead end.

Possibility #2: Life is unconditional. No magic is necessary, but neither is anything else.

Yes, yes, and #3: supernatural pursuits are escapist in nature, inherent distractions from living life.

Originally Posted by lycan

To say life is about living is to say nothing at all.

It's too profound to put into words, which is why it comes across as "nothing."

If you must insist on a literal reading, then be satisfied that life is about furthering life -- mere reproduction in non-human species, helping each other among human beings.

Originally Posted by lycan

There is nothing else you can do with life other than live it. The only detour from living is dying!

You're thinking in an Aristotelian manner: if/then, on/off...not subtle enough for "life" -- which is why a computer can never master the game of wei-chi while it can already beat human chess grandmasters. Remember, Buddhism is "the middle way," "a third path!"

[lycan]

Those who make an "abundant" living repackaging spiritual truths (ah, the power of marketing, which no one ever admits being under!) have failed the test of Jesus and Buddha, all the holy men of myth -- they have traded the hard life of God for the peace of death.

The story of Buddah is a corrupt retelling of the christian story. Buddah's father is God, the father, who provides everything. Buddah turns away from the father, as man turns away from Eden in Genesis. He turns into a beggar and chooses death. Yet his father keeps reminding him that he is a prince.

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by lycan

The story of Buddah is a corrupt retelling of the christian story. Buddah's father is God, the father, who provides everything. Buddah turns away from the father, as man turns away from Eden in Genesis. He turns into a beggar and chooses death. Yet his father keeps reminding him that he is a prince.

My boyfriend's favorite Zen parable:

Master has tea and biscuits with disciples. Master throws fan at one, shouting, what's that? Disciple catches and fans self; master says, good, good! Master throws other fan at other disciple, shouting, what's that? Other disciple catches and serves master biscuit with fan; master claps, good, good!

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

Yes, yes, and #3: supernatural pursuits are escapist in nature, inherent distractions from living life.

*shrug*

Life is short. Some people make sense of the world through supernatural means.

Escapist or not, it works for them. If their supernatural beliefs resulted in unhappiness, then it might be worth changing. Otherwise... who cares?

-Tim

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

My boyfriend's favorite Zen parable:

Master has tea and biscuits with disciples. Master throws fan at one, shouting, what's that? Disciple catches and fans self; master says, good, good! Master throws other fan at other disciple, shouting, what's that? Other disciple catches and serves master biscuit with fan; master claps, good, good!

Translation: nothing is a distraction from life, people simply take their life and live it as they see fit. And the "master", or "God", is pleased however you choose to use your life. There is no right way to live.

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by lycan

Translation: nothing is a distraction from life, people simply take their life and live it as they see fit. And the "master", or "God", is pleased however you choose to use your life. There is no right way to live.

I really have to point out that there are indeed right ways of living -- Buddhism's Eightfold Path speaks to this explicitly. Doesn't mean every single detail of your life will be regimented, as in a cult (or any other well-respected religion!), but right and wrong definitely do exist.

The Zen parable wasn't exactly saying to do whatever you will....

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by Mounds

*shrug*

Life is short. Some people make sense of the world through supernatural means.

Escapist or not, it works for them. If their supernatural beliefs resulted in unhappiness, then it might be worth changing. Otherwise... who cares?

-Tim

I have to call you out on this. "Who cares?" Obviously, you and I do, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Many people make sense of life through any number of superstitions, always harmful. You may not see the unhappiness, but it's there.

We are lucky that the Buddha (Lao Tse/Jesus/etc.) did not simply shrug at the ignorance that was causing so much misery.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

I have to call you out on this. "Who cares?" Obviously, you and I do, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Many people make sense of life through any number of superstitions, always harmful. You may not see the unhappiness, but it's there.

We are lucky that the Buddha (Lao Tse/Jesus/etc.) did not simply shrug at the ignorance that was causing so much misery.

The advice given in the Bible through Jesus is to renounce the world of facts and embrace the world of faith... it is filled with "magic".

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

I really have to point out that there are indeed right ways of living -- Buddhism's Eightfold Path speaks to this explicitly. Doesn't mean every single detail of your life will be regimented, as in a cult (or any other well-respected religion!), but right and wrong definitely do exist.

If you want x, there is a way that grants you x and a way that does not grant you x. Is this what you mean?

The Zen parable wasn't exactly saying to do whatever you will....

What was it saying?

[Aminka Ozmun]

Originally Posted by lycan

The advice given in the Bible through Jesus is to renounce the world of facts and embrace the world of faith... it is filled with "magic".

I'm not a literalist -- too much "magic" in the world to take things at face value.

Again, must have a mind capable of subtlety but strong enough to not get lost in those nuances. Otherwise, you wind up thinking that the universe was literally created in seven 24-hour periods.

Originally Posted by lycan

If you want x, there is a way that grants you x and a way that does not grant you x. Is this what you mean?

It's the classic "final temptation" motif.

Lycan, if you believe that I am ignorant, and committing great evil out of ignorance, and you had the power to simply wave a magic wand and have me magically turn into a wise do-gooder, would you wave that magic wand?

Originally Posted by lycan

What was it saying?

I would not wave that magic wand, Lycan, and therefore I will not divulge "the secret" to this or any other Zen parable (it's a parable for a reason, after all).

Waving such a magic wand is dangerous. Simply giving the answer is a disservice and actually is no answer at all.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by Aminka Ozmun

Otherwise, you wind up thinking that the universe was literally created in seven 24-hour periods.

How do you know it wasn't?

Lycan, if you believe that I am ignorant, and committing great evil out of ignorance, and you had the power to simply wave a magic wand and have me magically turn into a wise do-gooder, would you wave that magic wand?

That assumes I believe there is such a thing as great evil which you can cause others.

Parables are mnemonic devices. They are not a secret code.