The Case Of The 50$ Ebook

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

What you say and the vibe of what you say aren't the same. I've got as much right to state my feelings as you do.

Well, you're wrong. I agree I wasn't listening overmuch; I didn't feel like engaging. I don't need to hide it, I dislike feeling attacked and I do try to protect myself by avoiding interactions with people who make me feel that way. I've explained this before. I don't see why you need to dive into that sore spot and try to cleave it open.

Here it is: I want to share my points of view but when things get uncomfortable for me I don't want to continue discussing. Does that mean I'll ignore some people? Yes. Does that mean I won't listen to some arguments? Yes. Does that mean I am not taking other perspectives into account? Why yes! I took perspectives into account as much as I felt like and I had every right to opt out when I felt like, too.

There's no secret here, no hidden agenda. I write because I feel called to sharing what I think or feel. Then, sometimes I get uncomfortable when I feel attacked and I defend myself. I ignore, or block out what certain people say, or sometimes I try to prove people wrong -- I'm certain I could do things better but I'm working with the resources I have here.

You mentioned in your PM you felt a condemning tone in my posts - well you yourself are being condemning. I'm not a bad person (if there is such a thing) and I don't have some hidden conspiracy you have to uncover so you can save the forums from the beast.

Actually, I've been open with my discomfort debating since a long time ago. I'll have to find solutions to it, but for now I'm doing what I can with the resources that are available to me.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Well, you're wrong. I agree I wasn't listening overmuch; I didn't feel like engaging. I don't need to hide it, I dislike feeling attacked and I do try to protect myself by avoiding interactions with people who make me feel that way. I've explained this before. I don't see why you need to dive into that sore spot and try to cleave it open.

Here it is: I want to share my points of view but when things get uncomfortable for me I don't want to continue discussing. Does that mean I'll ignore some people? Yes. Does that mean I won't listen to some arguments? Yes. Does that mean I am not taking other perspectives into account? Why yes! I took perspectives into account as much as I felt like and I had every right to opt out when I felt like, too.

There's no secret here, no hidden agenda. I write because I feel called to sharing what I think or feel. Then, sometimes I get uncomfortable when I feel attacked and I defend myself. I ignore, or block out what certain people say, or sometimes I try to prove people wrong -- I'm certain I could do things better but I'm working with the resources I have here.

You mentioned in your PM you felt a condemning tone in my posts - well you yourself are being condemning. I'm not a bad person (if there is such a thing) and I don't have some hidden conspiracy you have to uncover so you can save the forums from the beast.

Actually, I've been open with my discomfort debating since a long time ago. I'll have to find solutions to it, but for now I'm doing what I can with the resources that are available to me.

I'll continue the conversation here because this post is public.

I don't mean it to come across as if that's what I perceive-that you're some kind of beast, that is. If I thought you were you'd know. The key word in any of what I've said is incongruity and that is something I address when I see it regardless of who it is. That you and I have a bit of a history makes it difficult for us to keep a level head at times, I think.

See, the thing about what you're saying here is that if you've gotten what you're going to get out of a thread and you're disconnecting from it, it seems like it would be more fair to all of us if you would say that and then bow out. Continuing the discussion creates the illusion that there's a discussion to be had but there really isn't when someone is speaking from a fixed viewpoint.

I'll grant you that there's still something to be gained from staying in the fray-it's the only way to overcome oversensitivity and gain the strength to stand your ground. But it still feels like the stated intention behind a lot of these discussions is different from what actually happens.

Again: incongruity.

Nobody's perfect and I certainly wouldn't demand that of anyone, but while some things have changed on the surface the same patterns keep playing themselves out, and when you've got people talking but you're not listening somebody's going to call you on it. That's just how it is.

[Cado]

On that note-I'm gonna bow out of this thread because it's been derailed enough and this has nothing to do with the core discussion. I've said anything I want to say on the topic at hand so Andrew, if there's more to say, please send it to me via PM.

[Andrew Gubb]

Fair enough. I'll reply briefly to a one of point, seeing as it was brought up here:

I think your suggestion on bowing out makes sense. I should probably start doing that more.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I started out doing that, then feedback made me clear on my point of view and I started defending it. Is there a problem with that?

Nope, non at all.

It would be nice though if in a future you could mention when you reach the point of being clear on your own point of view, because it would mean (to me) that I will stop discussing this with you.

I discuss things with people who are listening and open to my point of view. And I do the same for them. Knowing in advance when they are not at that point anymore would help a lot with with knowing when it is worth responding and when not.

This is a personal preference though, not a must of course... It may also help you yourself by not being in discussions anymore where you have already made up your mind?

[Agota]

Andrew, people are not attacking you personally. People are sharing their thoughts on the topic you've brought up, 50$ ebooks. In case your argument doesn't sound strong, people use their logic to question them. That's what discussions are about.This discussion was really polite one until few people started get emotional.

Andrew, maybe I've used a wrong word, experience.You're caught up in a single viewpoint, which is based on your perceptions. Andrew, I've said that your logic in regards to ebooks is very similar to the logic of a woman who is convinced that all men are bastards (..or we can use the example of a man who thinks that all women are gold diggers). You're saying it's not so. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you show me the difference between your logic and their logic? I don't see any, to be honest, that's all about being caught up in a very narrow attitude (again, I don't mean narrow in an offending way).

[Agota]

Or is this discussion already over?

..sorry, I wasn't sure about the situation

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Agota

Andrew, people are not attacking you personally. People are sharing their thoughts on the topic you've brought up, 50$ ebooks. In case your argument doesn't sound strong, people use their logic to question them. That's what discussions are about.This discussion was really polite one until few people started get emotional.

Andrew, maybe I've used a wrong word, experience.You're caught up in a single viewpoint, which is based on your perceptions. Andrew, I've said that your logic in regards to ebooks is very similar to the logic of a woman who is convinced that all men are bastards (..or we can use the example of a man who thinks that all women are gold diggers). You're saying it's not so. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you show me the difference between your logic and their logic? I don't see any, to be honest, that's all about being caught up in a very narrow attitude (again, I don't mean narrow in an offending way).

Agota, your arguments don't make sense. I've only mentioned my experience once. All of the rest of my arguments have not been about my experience. Why don't you read them and see?

[Agota]

Then answer my question - what are the differences between your logic in regards to ebooks and logic of the man who thinks that all women are gold diggers? I mean, if my argument doesn't make any sense, it should be very easy for you to prove me wrong, right?

I wasn't talking about experience. I've used the wrong word before, I'm sorry. I'm talking about being caught up in a single viewpoint and declining all other viewpoints. I mean, that's perfectly fine, but you started discussion with an intention to question your own viewpoint. Or maybe were done with that already, sorry if I missed it

..btw, please tell me if andrew is not the only one who's not getting the comparison. Maybe I haven't expressed my thought clearly enough.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Agota

Then answer my question - what are the differences between your logic in regards to ebooks and logic of the man who thinks that all women are gold diggers? I mean, if my argument doesn't make any sense, it should be very easy for you to prove me wrong, right?

I wasn't talking about experience. I've used the wrong word before, I'm sorry. I'm talking about being caught up in a single viewpoint and declining all other viewpoints. I mean, that's perfectly fine, but you started discussion with an intention to question your own viewpoint. Or maybe were done with that already, sorry if I missed it

..btw, please tell me if andrew is not the only one who's not getting the comparison. Maybe I haven't expressed my thought clearly enough.

I'm done questioning my own viewpoint, yes, sorry if that wasn't clear enough. I might question it more if I get new input, but so far people have been using the same arguments that I don't find convincing.

The difference between me and a guy who thinks all women are gold diggers is that that guy is making an absurd overgeneralisation that is probably covering up mysogyny underneath, while I'm saying that ebooks that are priced 50$+ are overpriced because the normal market price for books is 5 to 10 times cheaper.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

The difference between me and a guy who thinks all women are gold diggers is that that guy is making an absurd overgeneralisation that is probably covering up mysogyny underneath, while I'm saying that ebooks that are priced 50$+ are overpriced because the normal market price for books is 5 to 10 times cheaper.

I'm talking about the way of thinking, not the arguments. You see, that guy would also have a logical (to him) arguments why all women are gold diggers. He doesn't see that this is an overgeneralization. The same way, you don't see that it's an overgeneralization to say that all ebooks that cost 50$ dollars are rip-offs. I'm sure most of them are, but definitely not all and even though I haven't seen one yet, there must be a chance that an ebook which costs 50$ and is worth every penny exist. You reject this possibility, although the experience of other people backs up it's existence. In this way, it's the same as thinking that all women are gold diggers and ignoring everyone who says "Hey, dude, my girlfriend pays my rent, she must see something in me besides my wallet". They ignore the possibility that something that is outside their viewpoint might exist and you are doing the same.

However, you've made it clear that this discussion is over for you and that's your choice. I simply believe that it might be hard for you to make money online (assuming that's your intention with your website) if you keep your current attitude towards the issue. However, it's only my opinion, so maybe you'll be fine. Anyway, it was an interesting discussion, thank you for that

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Agota

I'm talking about the way of thinking, not the arguments. You see, that guy would also have a logical (to him) arguments why all women are gold diggers. He doesn't see that this is an overgeneralization. The same way, you don't see that it's an overgeneralization to say that all ebooks that cost 50$ dollars are rip-offs. I'm sure most of them are, but definitely not all and even though I haven't seen one yet, there must be a chance that an ebook which costs 50$ and is worth every penny exist. You reject this possibility, although the experience of other people backs up it's existence. In this way, it's the same as thinking that all women are gold diggers and ignoring everyone who says "Hey, dude, my girlfriend pays my rent, she must see something in me besides my wallet". They ignore the possibility that something that is outside their viewpoint might exist and you are doing the same.

Well, maybe you're ignoring the possibility that something outside your viewpoint exists too? Why am I the only person who can be compared to a deluded man?

I don't feel like I'm overgeneralising. I'm saying that information is sold at a lower price than that. Market forces have brought down the price on the free market, but in places like the web the free market can be side-stepped to some extent and prices are placed too high (what I would call too high).

Where is the overgeneralisation in that?

But anyway, I am not particularly interested in continuing this discussion. I know you won't change your mind and neither will I - I don't think I will. Not ruling it out but I haven't seen anything convincing yet.

[Andrew Gubb]

Just to let you guys know I'm unsubscribing from this thread. It's become derailed and I've a rather nasty taste in my mouth from all this recent talk; also, I stopped having much to say a while ago.