Freelance writing and conveyor belt content - Mounds, you're going to hate this

[WarrenG]

If you're trying to make money online using Adsense or similar, the process goes something like this:

1. Think of an idea
2. Do keyword research, check traffic and CPC
3. Ensure low competition / balance out predicted return against effort that will get that return
4. If suitable, create content
5. Repeat

I recently came across the aptly named Demand Media, who have taken this to a whole new level, essentially by automating this whole process. There's a Wired article here with detailed information, but I'd prefer you read my summary here as I'm about to take the time to write it.

Demand own a terabyte of data on search traffic trends and advertising revenue. They have a secret algorithm which mines this, and brings up potential keywords which have a good balance of traffic, CPC and low competition. These keywords get turned into article titles, which are fed into their back-end system. Over 4,000 freelancers log in, and scan the list of titles, claiming 10 at a time. They write the article, then another person edits and checks it's not duplicate content, and if not, it's automatically posted to one of Demand's many sites - ehow and livestrong among them but many more.

They have basically automated niche research, and outsourced content creation. It immediately reminded me of what mounds said in another thread - information overload. They are aiming to be producing one million pages per month. But they are obscure topics, how to get frogs out of your pool, stuff like that.

What do you think of this? In many ways it's genius, and insanely profitable (or will be). But on the other hand, it is a factory for poor content produced by people who are not experts in the field, and who probably Googled to research what they would put in their article in the first place! All they are doing, you could argue, is paraphrasing other content, optimising it better, and cashing in. Definitely goes against the idea of creating from passion and genuine desire to provide value. And yet, if people are looking for these obscure things, and Demand make them easier to find, you could also argue it's reducing information overload.

But certainly, the content is likely to be low quality in most cases. Having said that, expert status is going to be irrelevant for these strange and random search terms (How to clean a lizard), and sometimes people just Google for a quick tip, not an in-depth analysis.

If you're in the online marketing field and your income is based on keyword and niche research, this could be a problem. Especially since they are not the only people doing this (Associated Content, owned by Yahoo, are, and AOL are getting in on it)

If you're a writer, it might be an opportunity. They don't pay much ($15 / article of a few hundred words), but if you use an average of 1 hour per article, it's not a bad wage. Two articles per day would be a living if your costs are low. Yes, it's not passive income, but if I use Google analytics to calculate the average Adsense income of all my blog posts, it would take a long time to get up to $15, because I don't always write with income in mind, and sometimes when I do, I get the research wrong.

What do you think of this? I was thinking of giving the writing a whirl. Crap, I keep forgetting I'm on this inspiration/intuition 30 day trial, I'll have to try to find out what my intuition is on this one. If you asked me on the spot to choose one way or another, I'd say give it a shot and see what happens, it's no commitment so can stop anytime.

Have you written for these guys, Associated Content or anyone similar? Any experiences to share?

[Mounds]

I made a point of not reading your post and I hate it already! Damn, you're good

Edit: Yep, I think for the sake of my blood pressure, I'll steer clear of this thread Carry on!

[moonrambler]

I write for them. If you can write well and do it reasonably quickly, it's a good deal.

[James81]

Good call on the whole "Mounds will hate this" thing.

[WarrenG]

Moon,

Cool stuff, could you give some more info? How long do you spend on each article, and how many do you put out per week? Are there any decent topics to cover or are they all pretty much nonsense?

[moonrambler]

A person starts with the $15 articles, but they have numerous other better-paying opportunities you can get into once you prove yourself (like Livestrong, which you mentioned), if you want to get more specialized. But the general $15 articles can be plenty if you write well and fast. You want to be able to do one per hour, as you said. Sometimes there's a wealth of topics and other times the topics are more tough, like they'll dump several thousand car-repair articles into the list. But still, there's a few hundred thousand titles in the list at any given time.

I generally do 25 to 30 articles a week. Many people there do a LOT more. (There's a forum where the writers get to know each other pretty well.) Some writers can crank out two or three how-to articles an hour. One writer I know, for instance, does two or three before she heads out to her real job every workday. That's a nice bit of extra cash!

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

A person starts with the $15 articles, but they have numerous other better-paying opportunities you can get into once you prove yourself (like Livestrong, which you mentioned), if you want to get more specialized. But the general $15 articles can be plenty if you write well and fast. You want to be able to do one per hour, as you said. Sometimes there's a wealth of topics and other times the topics are more tough, like they'll dump several thousand car-repair articles into the list. But still, there's a few hundred thousand titles in the list at any given time.

I generally do 25 to 30 articles a week. Many people there do a LOT more. (There's a forum where the writers get to know each other pretty well.) Some writers can crank out two or three how-to articles an hour.

Thanks for the info!

Wow, so you basically get your full-time living from this? I think I'll give it a go then, should be a good supplement until my own sites get up to speed, and maybe after that too.

One writer I know, for instance, does two or three before she heads out to her real job every workday. That's a nice bit of extra cash!

Yeah it is. I'm pretty frugal. That would support me fully. A full day's work before 9am.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

A person starts with the $15 articles, but they have numerous other better-paying opportunities you can get into once you prove yourself (like Livestrong, which you mentioned), if you want to get more specialized. But the general $15 articles can be plenty if you write well and fast. You want to be able to do one per hour, as you said. Sometimes there's a wealth of topics and other times the topics are more tough, like they'll dump several thousand car-repair articles into the list. But still, there's a few hundred thousand titles in the list at any given time.

I generally do 25 to 30 articles a week. Many people there do a LOT more. (There's a forum where the writers get to know each other pretty well.) Some writers can crank out two or three how-to articles an hour. One writer I know, for instance, does two or three before she heads out to her real job every workday. That's a nice bit of extra cash!

Is there an upfront fee to join/make an account? Do they charge any recurring fees or hidden fees of other kinds?


A guaranteed $15/article sounds like I could do THAT after college for awhile, instead of getting a "real" job

Anything to not wear a suit and tie every day!

[moonrambler]

No fees. They pay through Paypal in a bulk payroll system so there's no fees with that either. You need to apply with a list of experience and writing samples.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

No fees. They pay through Paypal in a bulk payroll system so there's no fees with that either. You need to apply with a list of experience and writing samples.

I looked at their website. This actually sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

A guaranteed $15/hour at just 1 article/hour. I will definitely apply!! And I can write like a baller, I have actually been published in a magazine to 50,000 readers before


You said something about picking 10 article titles at a time. What exactly do you mean? Is there a limit of 10 articles per day or something?

[WarrenG]

You claim 10 titles of articles to write at time, and you have to write those before claiming any more.

Anything to not wear a suit and tie every day!

Here here.

Actually I thought this might pique your interest Curtis!

It does sound like a sweet deal...you could potentially knuckle down and write 16 hours a day for a month, save up some money. And you can also have an option of a share of the revenue instead of a flat fee, in some cases (according to the FAQ).

[moonrambler]

With that 10-article limit, you can write one and submit it and then you're free to choose another one and put it in your list. They increase that limit over time. It's a beneficial system because you can grab 10 articles at once if you see a bunch you want. Also you can choose the article titles all at once and then write them later, if you prefer doing it that way, rather than looking for one article and then writing it and repeating the process. And they give you seven days to write them.

[Andrew Gubb]

I do constant content. Buy Website Content, Order Articles - Constant Content

The editors are tricky to please which is what has kept me from dedicating 100% of my working time to it. But if your article goes through, it's an excellent payoff for your time, better than the other sites Mounds hates. And the great thing is, you can write what you choose to write about, and other people will buy up your articles if they like them. So it means you can get some passion and personal expertise in there (IF you can please the editors!) rather than rehashing googled articles all the time.

[mikethedrummer44]

I'd be careful with these types of sites.

They're legitimate, but I've found the biggest problem is the editors. When you submit an article, it goes to editors, who make revisions. Most of the editors are fair, but some of them require ridiculous changes. If you re-submit the article with the changes and they still don't like it, it gets rejected, and you don't get paid a cent for it. Also, all the topics are extremely obscure. It can be pretty damn hard to write a decent article on something with almost no information available.

I used to write for Demand Studios, but I felt it was more like having an actual job than being in charge of my own business, which is what I'm aiming for. But I see how it could definitely be a good source of income for writers who can write well on obscure topics.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I do constant content. Buy Website Content, Order Articles - Constant Content

The editors are tricky to please which is what has kept me from dedicating 100% of my working time to it. But if your article goes through, it's an excellent payoff for your time, better than the other sites Mounds hates. And the great thing is, you can write what you choose to write about, and other people will buy up your articles if they like them. So it means you can get some passion and personal expertise in there (IF you can please the editors!) rather than rehashing googled articles all the time.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the tip!

Could you give a bit more info on how this works? I just had a look round their site but not sure I have the full picture. You write articles on anything you want, and you set your own price, and just put it out there for people to buy?

Some of the prices are pretty high - $40-70 per article! Do you find you get many takers? Are any topics more popular than others? It could be a bit of a gamble to put the time into something that might do nothing. How much do you make if you don't mind me asking, or how much per article on average? Ballpark is fine.

I might give them a go too, I like the philosophy of picking topics you're passionate about. I'll see how it goes with the stuff Mounds hates first I think...

[curiouslyrandom]

I'm still balking at Demand Media and Constant Content because I'm used to being paid more for my articles, like $150-200 for 600 words or a how-to article, and that's still peanuts. I don't like the idea of writing something up in an hour for $15 because I tend to take more time than that just doing research and background on my subjects.

Maybe it's the wave of the future. I kind of hope not, though.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer44

I'd be careful with these types of sites.

They're legitimate, but I've found the biggest problem is the editors. When you submit an article, it goes to editors, who make revisions. Most of the editors are fair, but some of them require ridiculous changes. If you re-submit the article with the changes and they still don't like it, it gets rejected, and you don't get paid a cent for it. Also, all the topics are extremely obscure. It can be pretty damn hard to write a decent article on something with almost no information available.

I used to write for Demand Studios, but I felt it was more like having an actual job than being in charge of my own business, which is what I'm aiming for. But I see how it could definitely be a good source of income for writers who can write well on obscure topics.

Thanks for the info Mike. So Demand Studios are pretty picky too then? Hopefully I'll pass the screening and get a look at some of the available topics.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

I'm still balking at Demand Media and Constant Content because I'm used to being paid more for my articles, like $150-200 for 600 words or a how-to article, and that's still peanuts.

Who would these be for, mainstream media or something?

I don't like the idea of writing something up in an hour for $15 because I tend to take more time than that just doing research and background on my subjects.

Me too! That's always been a problem of mine, I wanted to put too much research and time into my posts, so I couldn't produce them fast enough. That was for somewhat scientific/academic stuff (or normal stuff from that angle) though.

Maybe it's the wave of the future. I kind of hope not, though.

I think it's a wave, not the wave necessarily. It's a game - looking for profitable niches and finding a way of reducing the time and cost involved in filling them. If big companies didn't find a scalable way to do it quickly, lots of online marketers working individually would get there slowly.

[mikethedrummer44]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Thanks for the info Mike. So Demand Studios are pretty picky too then? Hopefully I'll pass the screening and get a look at some of the available topics.

Well, it depends on the editor. But in general, yes. I stopped writing for them because I got really frustrated that my article got rejected, when it met the standards of other articles accepted. There's really nothing you can do but abandon the article, because if it gets rejected again, not only do you not get paid, but it's a big black mark on your account.

It's an okay way to make money that can be fairly reliable, as in there's always work available, but private clients are FAR better. I'd recommend setting up a website and using a website like elance or guru to find work that pays just as well.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Who would these be for, mainstream media or something?

Exactly.

Me too! That's always been a problem of mine, I wanted to put too much research and time into my posts, so I couldn't produce them fast enough. That was for somewhat scientific/academic stuff (or normal stuff from that angle) though.

I put in hours of research for some of my professional blog posts, but those drive customers to my online retail shop, so it's worth it for me to do so.

I think it's a wave, not the wave necessarily. It's a game - looking for profitable niches and finding a way of reducing the time and cost involved in filling them. If big companies didn't find a scalable way to do it quickly, lots of online marketers working individually would get there slowly.

Time will tell, eh? I don't think it's a bad thing, but the lack of depth does irk me. I've read articles online that simply parrot one another, spewing the same information that may or may not be accurate. I prefer a little more accountability, but I'm a slow wave kind of girl.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the tip!

Could you give a bit more info on how this works? I just had a look round their site but not sure I have the full picture. You write articles on anything you want, and you set your own price, and just put it out there for people to buy?

Exactly.

Some of the prices are pretty high - $40-70 per article! Do you find you get many takers?

I haven't sold huge amounts, but I hear you sell most when you have more articles on your profile and I haven't been able to get many up yet due to my struggles with the eds. But it has been worth my while, I've sold a fair few.

Are any topics more popular than others?

Well, I think if it's interesting enough for you to write about, it's interesting enough for people to buy. That said, health, diet and finance articles are quite popular.

It could be a bit of a gamble to put the time into something that might do nothing.

Well, there's a lot of time out there, why not use some just to see what happens?

How much do you make if you don't mind me asking, or how much per article on average? Ballpark is fine.

Umm, I'm not pro pro, I'm still using a low promotional price to get my stuff sold quickly to make my profile more attractive. But I sell at around 5 cents a word currently. Articles of 500-700 words in length.

I might give them a go too, I like the philosophy of picking topics you're passionate about. I'll see how it goes with the stuff Mounds hates first I think...¡

Enjoy

[moonrambler]

With Demand, if you write for them, you just gotta have an attitude of it is what it is. They want short articles written a certain way. I haven't had much of a problem with rewrites/rejections and unreasonable editors. There are some quick rewrites and once in awhile you'll decide to abandon a rewrite because it's too extensive, and then there's the rare rejection. And you need to figure that into your hourly rate. Mike is right, in a lot of ways it's more like having a job than having your own business. I just like the steady income they pay that I can count on every week.

A friend and I have an Elance business and we basically gave up on it as it's overrun with writers willing to crank out like 200 articles for $50. We spent so much time going through zillions of potential projects, and then you have to bid on them, and most of the time the project administrator chooses somebody who is really low-balling the pay.

[mikethedrummer44]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

With Demand, if you write for them, you just gotta have an attitude of it is what it is. They want short articles written a certain way. I haven't had much of a problem with rewrites/rejections and unreasonable editors. There are some quick rewrites and once in awhile you'll decide to abandon a rewrite because it's too extensive, and then there's the rare rejection. And you need to figure that into your hourly rate. Mike is right, in a lot of ways it's more like having a job than having your own business. I just like the steady income they pay that I can count on every week.

A friend and I have an Elance business and we basically gave up on it as it's overrun with writers willing to crank out like 200 articles for $50. We spent so much time going through zillions of potential projects, and then you have to bid on them, and most of the time the project administrator chooses somebody who is really low-balling the pay.

Yeah, that's definitely a problem, although I think it was a far worse problem on oDesk. The real problem I have with eLance is that the work used to be really inconsistant. I used to only apply for jobs that were longterm, and I would almost never get them. I would have small high paying jobs for a month, where I would have money, and then I wouldn't work for like three months.

I started bidding on the low paying articles, and it's been much better for me. For example, I started a job that only pays $1 per 100 words. The quality is really low, though, so I can easily pump out around 15 in one hour. On top of this, the employer has given me several high paying article jobs as well, so I've been making quite a lot of money.

The freelance writing world is random.

[WarrenG]

Appreciate the comments dudes and dudettes, this is invaluable.

Mike, about elance etc., - I guess that's a possibility. I'm not feeling drawn to the idea though, and due a a 30 day trial of intuition, I'll sit on the idea for now. I think I need to stop asking for advice in general this month. But what if my intuition is to ask for advice? Ah it's confusing.

Andrew - thanks for the additional info. I'll give them a shot too.

Originally Posted by moonrambler

I just like the steady income they pay that I can count on every week.

Yeah, plus you can work when and where you want. You could get a laptop with WiFi and go travelling, writing on the way to pay for it.

Well, when I say 'You could', I mean 'I will', assuming I have a similar experience to you and no problems with eds. We'll see.

[Mounds]

So get this. I'm sitting here working on a website for my small business (a hellish endeavor I might add) and my opportunity senses start tingling. "Go to Stevepavlina.com forums..." it said, in a ghastly voice. So I arrive here and a faint glow is emitting from the Business and Financial sub forum.
And then... an incongruency like no other. A thread I was meant to hate, talking about how to make side income. This would imply that I hate making more money! My name befouled, I must correct this matter.
Easier money, I do not know. CC, where have you been all my life?

-Tim

[curiouslyrandom]

The freelance writing world is random.

Hence my moniker.

Yeah, plus you can work when and where you want. You could get a laptop with WiFi and go travelling, writing on the way to pay for it.

That's my plan, to invest in a new laptop after the holidays and head out on the road as much as possible. Ideally I would like a book deal so I could write about living on the road with my family, so we'll see how that develops.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer44

I used to write for Demand Studios, but I felt it was more like having an actual job than being in charge of my own business, which is what I'm aiming for. But I see how it could definitely be a good source of income for writers who can write well on obscure topics.

My idea:

1) Write for them part-time just enough to live off of comfortably.

2) Build my online businesses in my spare time!

3) Once the online business provides enough passive income to live off of comfortably, stop working! Actually just keep working but only on things I want to work on



I have one question: What is to stop me from taking 10 article titles, going to Elance and outsourcing them for $5 each, then re-selling them to Demand Media for $15 each?

I SMELL OPPORTUNITY!!! (tongue in cheek.... but not entirely!)

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Mounds

A thread I was meant to hate, talking about how to make side income. This would imply that I hate making more money! My name befouled, I must correct this matter.
Easier money, I do not know. CC, where have you been all my life?

Old boy, you're only supposed to hate the first bit, about producing content purely for adsense and not for passion. The constant content thing is more up your alley - authors choose the topics and heavily edited.

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

That's my plan, to invest in a new laptop after the holidays and head out on the road as much as possible.

Well good luck to use both. When we succeed, what say we cross paths on a beach somewhere, you can can buy me a mojito, and we'll sit around, boring your family by reminiscing on the day we talked about this on an internet forum?

[mikethedrummer44]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

My idea:

1) Write for them part-time just enough to live off of comfortably.

2) Build my online businesses in my spare time!

3) Once the online business provides enough passive income to live off of comfortably, stop working! Actually just keep working but only on things I want to work on



I have one question: What is to stop me from taking 10 article titles, going to Elance and outsourcing them for $5 each, then re-selling them to Demand Media for $15 each?

I SMELL OPPORTUNITY!!! (tongue in cheek.... but not entirely!)

Haha. This reminds me of a 'genius' idea I had a while ago. While I was mowing the lawn, I decided that I could hire an article writer for $15 an article, and then submit the articles onto constant content. Since you get anywhere from $30-70 per accepted article, I'd make some decent profit.

I never went through with it, though, because if you get three rejected articles, you are essentially fired from the website.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but doesn't Demand Studios limit the amount of articles you can write? Maybe it's because I never got past the initial phase, but I remember I could only write like 10 articles per week or something like that.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

My idea:

1) Write for them part-time just enough to live off of comfortably.

2) Build my online businesses in my spare time!

3) Once the online business provides enough passive income to live off of comfortably, stop working! Actually just keep working but only on things I want to work on

My plan exactly. This is a big, 470 employee company, with hundreds of millions in funding from Goldman Sachs and others, who make money through Google and Yahoo's ad networks. Make no mistake, this is not self-employment - you're working for the man!