Is Making Money Online "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥"?

[Manomanman]

Hey everyone,

I wrote a blog post that I think is really important and hashes out a major issue when it comes to making money online. Which is the following: "Is making money online '♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥'"?

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

I'm trying to help people ACTUALLY make money online, and I want to know what you think about taking on the "get rich quick" industry the way I'm proposing.

Thanks, and let me know if you have any questions or I can help you in any way.

-Jesse

[AaronA]

Jesse,

After reading your site, I'd probably describe myself as being about 90% - 98% in agreement with you, though there are some cases that I can't completely discount. But we always have to be on our own harshest critics. Do you yourself have a track record in online business? And are good online marketing businesses (that seems to be the thing gurus want you to do - basically teach others SEO and the like) really saturated yet? Again, I do agree that most folks seem to lure in anybody they can with dreams of getting rich quick, and the environment isn't conducive to that. If you've got the goods, I say tell the world, and don't be afraid to charge what you're worth.

Aaron

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by AaronA

Jesse,

After reading your site, I'd probably describe myself as being about 90% - 98% in agreement with you, though there are some cases that I can't completely discount. But we always have to be on our own harshest critics. Do you yourself have a track record in online business? And are good online marketing businesses (that seems to be the thing gurus want you to do - basically teach others SEO and the like) really saturated yet? Again, I do agree that most folks seem to lure in anybody they can with dreams of getting rich quick, and the environment isn't conducive to that. If you've got the goods, I say tell the world, and don't be afraid to charge what you're worth.

Aaron

THANKS Aaron!

Your criticisms are all 100% valid.

Proof of income is absolutely critical to what I'm doing, because without it, it is hypocritical of me to say, "I know how to make money" when I haven't made money yet.

In fact, that's the current "phase" of Schoolofpower - which is actually building up an income before "phase 2" which is creating the product.

In other words, I won't sell my "make money online" product until I've actually made money the way I'm going to teach you.

[Mounds]

I like your site and your idea. Your miles ahead of most people who never get going in the first place. Needs a bit of work though so I'm gonna throw this out there and see where it leads...
I think there's a bit of blame going on here. Blaming the guru for failing us, blaming school for not teaching us. It seems like your stepping in to be the next guru... who will inevitably fail as well. The reason being is that you simply can't hold anyone's hand through the entire process. Your writing suggests that you will do that and we both know that will lead to the failure of the proprieter. At which point, they will blame you and call you a con artist. Prove me wrong!
IMO, if you want to help people, you need to help this community of people how to understand money. Money generally doesn't come at breakneck speed and if it does, it usually leaves quickly as well. I like to think that financially successful people understand money and everyone else thinks they understand it. The people who think they understand it beleive in get rich quick schemes, of which there is no such thing. Yes, people have gotten rich fast. But it's inconsistent and unreliable. If you can get those people to see the light, that would be incredible.

-Tim

[mainstreetcm]

I like your article. I also feel that you want to project to your readers that they need to "start taking action." I frequent a few webmaster forums, and I was originally perplexed by the two types of "internet marketers" online. First you have the ones who actually take action, they have several websites and programs currently running. Irregardless of how successful they are -- they are at least taking action.

On the other side of the coin are what I call "social internet marketers." These people rarely take action, and really only partake in the world of internet marketing because of the feeling that "hopeful success" gives them. Most guru's and bloggers tap into this extremely lucrative market because there are countless people who just want to drink the cool-aid, and very few who are actually motivated by it.

I think that is the common problem in the internet marketing field. There a bunch of dreamers, and they are the ones to point out that "making money online is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥," simply because they have not taken any action on what they have learned. I assure you, even though you are only going to post 5 blogs on the subject -- there are still going to be people who just read your blogs and then move onto another blogger because they are desperately seeking that "hopeful success" feeling from just reading about it.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I like your site and your idea. Your miles ahead of most people who never get going in the first place. Needs a bit of work though so I'm gonna throw this out there and see where it leads...
I think there's a bit of blame going on here. Blaming the guru for failing us, blaming school for not teaching us. It seems like your stepping in to be the next guru... who will inevitably fail as well. The reason being is that you simply can't hold anyone's hand through the entire process. Your writing suggests that you will do that and we both know that will lead to the failure of the proprieter. At which point, they will blame you and call you a con artist. Prove me wrong!
IMO, if you want to help people, you need to help this community of people how to understand money. Money generally doesn't come at breakneck speed and if it does, it usually leaves quickly as well. I like to think that financially successful people understand money and everyone else thinks they understand it. The people who think they understand it beleive in get rich quick schemes, of which there is no such thing. Yes, people have gotten rich fast. But it's inconsistent and unreliable. If you can get those people to see the light, that would be incredible.

-Tim

Responses like this make me all tingly inside

You guys are dead on with what you're saying.

So here are my thoughts:

1. I was a professional teacher. I've taught over 1200 students over 6 years. I've "held lots of hands" through some tough material. That's what makes my teaching different from others - I give YOU the tools you need to succeed.

2. If you're still reading blogs and not succeeding at your online business, it's the guru's fault for not moving you beyond that. Why? Because you're PAYING him. He should, in turn, help you acquire the skills of success. But "get rich quick" never teaches the skills, only "the dream."

3. You're ABSOLUTELY right about money, Monds. In the "only 5 blog posts" I'm creating, I teach the "fundamental laws of money."

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by mainstreetcm

First you have the ones who actually take action, they have several websites and programs currently running. Irregardless of how successful they are -- they are at least taking action.

Bad teachers constantly remind you: "Take action. JUST DO IT."

Good teachers, instead, advise: "Take this action." A good teacher will teach you how to think for yourself.

Perhaps 3 out of 30 people are willing to think for themselves (based on my experience teaching for 6 years at University of California), but it's a niche in the market that is not being spoken to at the moment.

Until I have proof of income, my blog posts will sound like projection. Once I actually have proof of income, people will jump on "the bandwagon" (I hope).

It's funny that you use the term "projection", because I literally am projecting the insecurities of the demographic I'm trying to speak to. It's not my insecurity - I know for a fact that there is REAL economic opportunity online.

[iDreamCatcher]

I think you have a market for that type of information expressed in that type of style.
Your audience are people who believe they are failing because they are being presented wrong "what to do" information.
So they are searching for the right "what to do" information and when they see statement "you been lied to" and here's "real truth" about what you really "need to do" that "they didn't want you to know" - they tend to like it for a while.
Until of course they'll discover that new stuff doesn't work for them either and go on with looking for better "what to do" information.

But then the next army of suckers who beleive in success by doership will arrive.

[mainstreetcm]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

Until I have proof of income, my blog posts will sound like projection. Once I actually have proof of income, people will jump on "the bandwagon" (I hope).

I still feel that you are going to run into those that are just "social internet marketers." The ones that, irregardless of how many tools you give them, are only reading what you give them to get that feeling of hopeful success. They read and read and read and think "gee I could do that too."

But when it comes time to implement all of the skills that you have laid out for them, for one reason or another they give up when they don't see the immediate results they were expecting -- an idea partly given to them in the articles they have poured over from the beginning.

I'm not saying that what you are trying to do won't help people, because I'm sure it certainly will, especially the ones who might be a bit lost or confused from information overload. However, the ones that continue to fail to take action, are the ones that will continue to do so whether you hold their hand or not.

Until we find a way to help the ones who are afraid to take even the smallest risks (whether you have income proof or not) the cycle will continue.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by mainstreetcm

I still feel that you are going to run into those that are just "social internet marketers." The ones that, irregardless of how many tools you give them, are only reading what you give them to get that feeling of hopeful success. They read and read and read and think "gee I could do that too."

But when it comes time to implement all of the skills that you have laid out for them, for one reason or another they give up when they don't see the immediate results they were expecting -- an idea partly given to them in the articles they have poured over from the beginning.

I'm not saying that what you are trying to do won't help people, because I'm sure it certainly will, especially the ones who might be a bit lost or confused from information overload. However, the ones that continue to fail to take action, are the ones that will continue to do so whether you hold their hand or not.

Until we find a way to help the ones who are afraid to take even the smallest risks (whether you have income proof or not) the cycle will continue.

I see now what you're saying.

This may sound harsh and cruel - but I don't actually care if people make money or not as a result of purchasing my educational materials.

Why? Because I'm not responsible for other peoples' behavior.

What I am responsible for is TELLING THE TRUTH and providing GENUINE VALUE, which I fully intend to do with my products.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by iDreamCatcher

I think you have a market for that type of information expressed in that type of style.
Your audience are people who believe they are failing because they are being presented wrong "what to do" information.
So they are searching for the right "what to do" information and when they see statement "you been lied to" and here's "real truth" about what you really "need to do" that "they didn't want you to know" - they tend to like it for a while.
Until of course they'll discover that new stuff doesn't work for them either and go on with looking for better "what to do" information.

But then the next army of suckers who beleive in success by doership will arrive.

I think these people will either:

1. Avoid my product. Because it's not the "what" that creates economic value (I clearly explain this in my videos coming up).

2. Buy it and react with, "OMG this stuff really works!"

THE DIFFERENCE between me and the other gurus is that I'm ACTUALLY teaching YOU how to make money.

GRQ Gurus: "This is how you can make money, by following these steps." (which is a lie)
Me: "Until you have something of value to exchange, you're not going to make money." (which is the truth)

[MattMacola]

Your wrong. Making no money and blaming it on the "gurus" is just a big excuse. Positioning yourself as one of the group who are trying to make money and those big bad gurus are stopping you is great for marketing. And it works because people believe it. That doesn't make it true though. The reason most people don't make money after buying one of these products is because they don't take action.... a lot of people who buy these kind of products are addicted to them.

It's a little cycle... they buy a make money product -> gives them hope -> they read the book -> start taking action -> new shiny product is launched and then they go right back to the start never getting very far.

And as a sidenote... that's something that I learned from Frank Kern who is one of the biggest make money online gurus. He also made a few million dollars in the last few of his product launches and made like $3million in a couple of years selling dog training products. I don't know about you but until I'm making that kind of money I'm going to keep learning from the guy.

The same goes for a bunch of people. Eben Pagan (the guy behind Double Your Dating and a bunch of other businesses) teaches a lot of make money online stuff and he is without a doubt the smartest guy I have EVER met. It's the same with a lot of the gurus that are online.

Sure, there are people selling crap make money online products and they are probably broke fat dudes trying to make a little money online themselves. But a lot of the guys (and ladies too!) who are really successful themselves and are teaching this stuff are well worth listening too IMHO.

Originally Posted by Manomanman

What I am responsible for is TELLING THE TRUTH and providing GENUINE VALUE, which I fully intend to do with my products.

Your really serious? The value they WANT from you is to help them make money. Nobody wants a book on making money - they want the money! If you can't provide that value then your going to be a very poor man selling products to the make money online crowd.

What makes YOU better than all the other people selling make money products? I don't know you so you could be a billionaire but if you haven't made a lot money selling stuff online yourself (not related to making money online) then I seriously don't believe your qualifies to teach others how to make money.

[Curtis2011]

Hmm..

Good luck

[SnerpGoodWord]

I think it's rather bombastic personally, but you're right - most if not all "Make Money Online" material is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I disagree slightly about why though. It's a very conservative economic stance in a way, but I personally feel the following argument is true:

1) Any economic activity that could not be classified as production is by definition some sort of middle man. Economics squeezes the profits out of the middle man. Thus all profits not derived from production are fragile and temporary and all middle man fields are over-crowded. Thus you need to be an uncommonly skilled middle man to have any success. In contrast a producer of a desirable good with median skill can be very successful.

2) Production occurs at the junction of labor and capital.

3) Make money online schemes are predicated on a lack of capital and frequently a desire to minimize labor.

4) Therefore make money online schemes are always middlemen of one sort or another. As a result the profits are small, and the level of skill required is high, and any profits that are attained are very fragile since no one wants the middle man around.

Making money offline is comparatively easy.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by MattMacola

What makes YOU better than all the other people selling make money products? I don't know you so you could be a billionaire but if you haven't made a lot money selling stuff online yourself (not related to making money online) then I seriously don't believe your qualifies to teach others how to make money.

There is a thing called "the stock market" where you can put your money in and it will make money for you.

It gives 10% annual returns.

Why people fail to realize that any other capital investment (in a "make money online product") is going to return more than this market "counterweight", let alone 5000x this much is beyond me.

What Makes Me Better

I have an advanced degree from a university, and I'm smarter than my competitors.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I think it's rather bombastic personally, but you're right - most if not all "Make Money Online" material is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I disagree slightly about why though. It's a very conservative economic stance in a way, but I personally feel the following argument is true:

1) Any economic activity that could not be classified as production is by definition some sort of middle man. Economics squeezes the profits out of the middle man. Thus all profits not derived from production are fragile and temporary and all middle man fields are over-crowded. Thus you need to be an uncommonly skilled middle man to have any success. In contrast a producer of a desirable good with median skill can be very successful.

2) Production occurs at the junction of labor and capital.

3) Make money online schemes are predicated on a lack of capital and frequently a desire to minimize labor.

4) Therefore make money online schemes are always middlemen of one sort or another. As a result the profits are small, and the level of skill required is high, and any profits that are attained are very fragile since no one wants the middle man around.

Making money offline is comparatively easy.

1) I agree with this first premise. I am VERY clear about this in my educational materials. Without skill, you have no "middle man value", which is why most people fail.

2-4) Economies don't function without middle men, which is another word for salesman.

If you lack salesman, you lack a marketplace, especially in the world we live in today, where the marketplace has become so far removed from main street.

The profits for the most skilled middle men, btw, are quite high. Marketing is a competitive game where the more money you have, the more money you can make. It's all "arbitage". If you can get into the game, there's profit to be made. If you can't break in, you'll lose your shirt.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by MattMacola

Your really serious? The value they WANT from you is to help them make money. Nobody wants a book on making money - they want the money! If you can't provide that value then your going to be a very poor man selling products to the make money online crowd.

The value is "the fantasy" or "the dream", not the money itself.

Just like religion - the value is in the dream (i.e. that God will make you rich...after you're dead), not the reality.

[AaronA]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

I think it's rather bombastic personally, but you're right - most if not all "Make Money Online" material is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I disagree slightly about why though. It's a very conservative economic stance in a way, but I personally feel the following argument is true:

1) Any economic activity that could not be classified as production is by definition some sort of middle man. Economics squeezes the profits out of the middle man. Thus all profits not derived from production are fragile and temporary and all middle man fields are over-crowded. Thus you need to be an uncommonly skilled middle man to have any success. In contrast a producer of a desirable good with median skill can be very successful.

2) Production occurs at the junction of labor and capital.

3) Make money online schemes are predicated on a lack of capital and frequently a desire to minimize labor.

4) Therefore make money online schemes are always middlemen of one sort or another. As a result the profits are small, and the level of skill required is high, and any profits that are attained are very fragile since no one wants the middle man around.

Making money offline is comparatively easy.

I think the important caveat to that analysis (which I do think it on point, for the most part) is online production. Because marginal production costs for ebooks and other electronic items is zero, you can have a monopolistic competition environment, where profits are made on differentiation. Those profits may not be all that high, with producers living on the short end of the long tail, but they aren't middlemen, as they are producing something that didn't exist before. And even middlemen, with targeted ads and websites, might be able to stave off perfect competition for awhile using differentiation. I'm still thinking this all through myself, but I do think that websites are something that is newly produced, and good websites are rewarded with attention and time. That doesn't necessarily lead to monetization (look at Facebook and Youtube), but it's a start.

This is a really interesting thread, it's gotten my thinking about how online markets work.

Aaron

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by AaronA

This is a really interesting thread, it's gotten my thinking about how online markets work.

Same here.

I will add this: economists cannot differentiate a good from a service in terms of production - production is really in reference to "things that can be exchanged."

If I come up with a REALLY good story to convince everybody in the world to give me a dollar, I produced something of economic value. It doesn't matter if it's physical or not.

That's why I believe Internet Marketing is a GOOD - because it's the intelligent allocation of capital and labor that results from the information being disseminated.

[SnerpGoodWord]

So if you're suggesting that people try to grab a bigger piece of a shrinking pie, how do you intend to really get them the talent/skills needed to do that?

Because my experience is that great talent at zero sum games (and being the middle man is one) is innate. It can be tutored, but ultimately either you've got it or you don't.

[MattMacola]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

The value is "the fantasy" or "the dream", not the money itself.

Just like religion - the value is in the dream (i.e. that God will make you rich...after you're dead), not the reality.

Agreed, that's the irrational value. But your customers logically believe they want the money and the stuff (big house, nice car, hot chicks) that comes with it. When they don't get that stuff they blame it on the gurus and say making money online is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I think there is a way to give both the irrational value (the dream) and the logical wish (the $$$'s). If you can do that then you have got a winning product!

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by MattMacola

The reason most people don't make money after buying one of these products is because they don't take action.... a lot of people who buy these kind of products are addicted to them.

It's a little cycle... they buy a make money product -> gives them hope -> they read the book -> start taking action -> new shiny product is launched and then they go right back to the start never getting very far.

"Take action" is a myth. This is called "reselling". The person who created the product cannot explain to you how what they're asking you to do will make you money.

So they say, "HAVE FAITH. YOU ARE NOT A BELIEVER. TRY THIS. TAKE ACTION." They're saying, "YOU are the problem."

It's just a way of shifting the burden of learning how to make money online BACK onto the person who is paying money to learn how to make money online.

"Take action" is another part of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ scheme.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by MattMacola

When they don't get that stuff they blame it on the gurus and say making money online is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

The people who haven't bought anything (the wise ones) say making money online is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

The people who buy the products get brainwashed into a cult of personality by the "guru" who convinces them to come to seminars and blow their entire bankroll on "training."

Okay, I'm giving away too much now....

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by AaronA

I think the important caveat to that analysis (which I do think it on point, for the most part) is online production. Because marginal production costs for ebooks and other electronic items is zero, you can have a monopolistic competition environment, where profits are made on differentiation. Those profits may not be all that high, with producers living on the short end of the long tail, but they aren't middlemen, as they are producing something that didn't exist before. And even middlemen, with targeted ads and websites, might be able to stave off perfect competition for awhile using differentiation. I'm still thinking this all through myself, but I do think that websites are something that is newly produced, and good websites are rewarded with attention and time. That doesn't necessarily lead to monetization (look at Facebook and Youtube), but it's a start.

This is why I said that my analysis was economically conservative. If you believe the zero-marginal-cost-of-production argument, then production no longer requires much capital.

If someone could show me a double handful of e-book millionaires, I might change my position.

I also agree that differentiation is possible. But that's the whole "skill at a zero sum game" issue.

[MattMacola]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

The people who haven't bought anything (the wise ones) say making money online is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

The people who buy the products get brainwashed into a cult of personality by the "guru" who convinces them to come to seminars and blow their entire bankroll on "training."

It seems I have been brainwashed. Damn!

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

This is why I said that my analysis was economically conservative. If you believe the zero-marginal-cost-of-production argument, then production no longer requires much capital.

If someone could show me a double handful of e-book millionaires, I might change my position.

I also agree that differentiation is possible. But that's the whole "skill at a zero sum game" issue.

There's a lot of money in affiliate marketing right now. That's why I claim 'the online goldrush.'

The demand that used to exist in OFFLINE media - magazines, TV, etc. - has begun to shift online, because time allocated to those other activities is more and more dedicated to web surfing.

The question really is, "Does this digital production lead to REAL economic production, in terms of tangible physical goods and services?" Because we can sit around swapping songs and blog posts from now to eternity, but real capital won't flow unless physical production is so high that the cost of this production drops.

And the answer, sadly, is that "make money online" is largely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because of the lack of real return for most "niche marketing."

There are a FEW niches where there is a real economic return in terms of real production (i.e. real economization happening).

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by MattMacola

It seems I have been brainwashed. Damn!

Who done it?

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

There's a lot of money in affiliate marketing right now. That's why I claim 'the online goldrush.'

How much money do you think is "a lot"? My gut feeling is that it's a small market on par with esoteric industrial markets - maybe $100M/year of net total across the industry. But that's just a guess.

How big do you think it is?

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

How much money do you think is "a lot"? My gut feeling is that it's a small market on par with esoteric industrial markets - maybe $100M/year of net total across the industry. But that's just a guess.

How big do you think it is?

Agora clears $250million.

Rich Schefren is like the "toadie" of Agora, and he probably does anywhere from 5 to 30 million.

The people underneath him in his network are all doing $300,000 up through $2 million a year. I'm not sure how many people are in his network, but it looks to be around a dozen or so heavy hitters.

Eben Pagan does $30 million.

Then you've got an army of affiliate marketers producing enough income to sustain this "pyramid".

ON TOP of JUST that, you've porn, videogames, Ebay, Amazon, and the entire gamut of everything else not associated with "make money online gurus".

If we're talking pure Ebooks and pure information with no physical product involved and not counting entertainment, we're looking at something slightly under a billion dollar annual market?

It could be way more, though. It's hard to estimate. All combined, the "lists" these people have built reaches millions of people, and each year is reaching more.

The goldrush hasn't even begun, tbh.

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

Agora clears $250million.

Who are we talking about here? These folks?
Agora SA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because they're not netting out anything like $250million.

These guys?
Agora Inc.

Can't find much of anything about them...