Job hunting: the most demeaning activity ever?

[Angela]

Rockchick, you have given me a great idea for a blog post; thank you! I'll link you up to it when I'm finished, if you're interested.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

Rockchick, you have given me a great idea for a blog post; thank you! I'll link you up to it when I'm finished, if you're interested.

Is this a good or a bad thing?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Is this a good or a bad thing?

The blog post will be on how, specifically and practically, one goes about moving to a perspective of being at cause. You tell me: is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

The blog post will be on how, specifically and practically, one goes about moving to a perspective of being at cause. You tell me: is that a good thing or a bad thing?

That sounds like a very good thing, I just thought you were going to make me look bad in your blog or something! I can't wait to read this!

I wanna check into Toastmasters now, I think I'll do that while I'm waiting. But I hope it's free.

[Rockchick26]

Ugh well Toastmasters isn't free, darn.

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Ugh well Toastmasters isn't free, darn.

Not free, but not that expensive either. Maybe you should attend a meeting as a visitor and see if you can talk someone in the club into sponsoring your. Maybe they'd let you attend as a visitor for a few months before joining. Don't give up right away!

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Not free, but not that expensive either. Maybe you should attend a meeting as a visitor and see if you can talk someone in the club into sponsoring your. Maybe they'd let you attend as a visitor for a few months before joining. Don't give up right away!

I'm just really hesitant to do this until I get a job because I would need to drive about an hour round trip (thats where the nearest meeting is from me), right now I can't even afford food or gas sometimes, so, I'll look into this when I get a job then I won't have to worry about anything.

[John Tedder]

In my experience, Toastmasters is a very friendly and supportive organization. I suggest that you call someone at the club that you would like to attend and explain the situation to them. You can at least go to the first meeting and see what an actual meeting is like.

You never know, someone that belongs to the club might even live near you and be able to give you a ride to the meeting.

I joined a year ago and I enjoy it very much. I have met some amazing people. Go for it.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

5 new people every day?! Some days I don't even see ANY people! And 99% of the time when I leave my apartment it's just to a friend's house. I really don't see a lot of other people besides my family and friends. Mostly because I'm unemployed and have no money to be going out unless it's to buy groceries. But I've been getting most of my food from my dad (ugh, i know, but i'm too broke sometimes to buy my own food)...so I only make it to the grocery store about once every 2 months.

Is Toastmasters free?

Ask 3 people out on a date each week!!? Let me tell you, in a whole YEAR I rarely even meet ONE guy I'd like to ask out. Partly because I don't get out much and partly because most guys I meet just want to have sex, and I'm not going to sink to that level. I don't need a man THAT bad.

So don't meet five new people every day . . . meet one new person every day. Just one. And don't tell me all the reasons you can't do that.

[Alfonso Crawford]

I just did some trolling for a "now hiring"-sign. I forgot how much that experience sucks. I seriously feel miserable.

Back to volunteering at spiritual centers!

[PerDev]

Great one ..

Originally Posted by Rabbit

So I just graduated about 1.5 months ago from the University of Texas (Austin) with a BA in Economics and a minor in Business Administration, GPA 3.083, etc. Not terribly bad credentials to start with. I do have some interesting things on my resume from previous jobs and academic achievements (major research papers), but I never did any internships. All in all, I hear that my resume is good, and I'm fairly proficient in writing cover letters.

Now, I graduated with about $5000 in the bank to hold me until I found a job. I truly did not realize that it would be this difficult, this upsetting, this demeaning... and definitely not this long. Suffice to say, I've been unsuccessful.

Upon graduation I had the goal of trying to get a job (almost any job) in the Texas beer brewing industry - most preferably from a local micro/craft brewery or a brewpub. This is my passion. Long term goals include starting my own business; I originally wanted to open my own brewpub, but have changed slightly to running a nonprofit organization for Texas micro/craft brewery advocacy (and earning my living from donations and other fund-raising activities).

Unfortunately, either of those would take a bit longer than I can afford to set up and start earning an adequate living. Thus, I've been doing the whole 'job hunt' thing. And I must profess: it is absolutely soul-crushing. But more exposition first:

I am strongly independent and entrepreneurial personally, and I strongly identify with Steve's articles about why one should never 'get a job'. However, I have to do something in the short-run to support myself, and like I said, setting up my goals (aka 'dream jobs') would take a while longer than I have. And, they are risky to boot - there is no guarantee that I'll earn anything in the next few years, if at all.

Thus I job-hunt, looking for something suitable for a college-degree-holding individual that wants to earn a decent living doing something they can apply their skills at.

So you may be asking: just what have I found?
I've found that I must completely throw out *all* of the following:
Job/position/field of work preferences
Geographical location preferences
Notion that I could earn even barely enough to support myself
The idea that I would be a valued and respected member of society

The last one is what really irks me. I've read up reports (even some from here) and fully understand the logic of employers employing predatory tactics to instill fear of job security. And perhaps I had some notion of some sort of 'entitlement' - not necessarily that I'm some spoiled bratty graduate - I would argue the exact opposite. However, it's made very explicit all the way along the chain of primary education and then through college that a degree is invaluable and in most cases (especially Economics! come on!) will easily lead to many favorable job offers.

I hate, hate, hate the fact that I have stooped so low as to be willing to sell away a part of my life, to become a mindless drone to cruel and ignorant masters - and even STILL I can't find anything that will pay the bills in a month and a half.

Especially now, given the economy (ironic, given my degree), it's downright impossible to find anything. All those laid-off experienced workers are free and are in competition with ME, who has 'less to bring to the table' (technically speaking). All these ads I find - ALL OF THEM - require years of experience. How the **** do I get experience in the field if I can't even get a job to begin with? And even worse, I now find that there are predatory scam job postings - and I almost fell into that trap a few days ago.

In retrospect, I should have skipped college. I'd like to go return my diploma and get my money back, so that I could repay those loans that lock me in a cage of fear and anxiety since paying them off now seems nearly impossible.

I'm not looking for encouragement, not at all. I appreciate it, but I've heard enough of the "you'll find something eventually!" and "hang in there!" lines that people spew without thinking. I don't find that they are encouraging at all - the more time I spend on this incredulous hunt, the more I find that I am selling my soul... or perhaps that it's already been sold, and now I'm feebly trying to get it back (and in the most erroneous and misguided way).

What I am interested in hearing is if anybody else feels this way about job hunting. Although I acknowledge that most here are entrepreneurs, I imagine that there are at least a few here in the same situation - gotta get something short-term just to survive.

I have seriously considered faking my own death to evade my loans, scooping up all the cash I can, and making a break for Mexico. This 'life' that must be adapted to seems depressing and impossible, and I refuse to simply comply. Thus I believe I will go back and try to make my own way again, and I'll just have to work 100 hours a week to simply earn enough money (hopefully) for quite a while just to pay rent. I'll probably have to get some menial job, employ some freelance sales like I used to (eBay and craigslist), and simultaneously be planning the creation of my dream job, the nonprofit beer advocacy group...

I'm just overwhelmed with all of this nonsense. How dysfunctional of a society do we live in when a qualified and intelligent person is more likely to end up homeless than happy?

/end rant

[Marty McFly]

The key to getting a job or a sale is likeability. You have to think of ways of inspiring feeling of value in your services and understand the psychology of persuasion.

Facts on paper and email often won't do much unless there are enough openings or the credentials are needed. Face to face meetings help when you smile and come across genuinely interested in the other person - not the objective. It's all about social interaction - who likes you.

[Rabbit]

Hey all - sorry to leave you 'in the dark' for so long. Relatively many changes since my first posting. I'll make a short summary here, and expand later if necessary...



Still no job. A few (very few) nibbles, a handful of interviews, but nothing substantial.
On 10/15 (I believe), I hit my "time limit" on finding a job and being able to support myself. This was a predetermined amount of time I calculated before even signing that lease weeks before graduation (based on projected expenditures and my then-current account balance).

Since that event was triggered, I had to re-lease my apartment and obtain room/board/bills that worked on my new budget (approximately $0). Thus, at the end of October, I moved (~15 miles) back home in my parents' house.

It felt great after I made the decision about two weeks before the move - I didn't have to worry about finances any more! After about two days here, my opinion has reversed entirely. Against all my efforts, I have NOT been an adult son moving back in to share a room in my parents' house; on the contrary, I have become -my parents' son-, *their kid*, moving back home.

The distinction is subtle at first glance, but extremely powerful in practice. As a result, I feel much, much worse than if I had sold my kidneys and kept my own place. My folks and I have had many a conversation about their intrusion into my life and what I do not find appropriate (ultimately settling on a compromise), but I know now that this element will not change, and I am doomed to be unfulfilled and unhappy living here. I've got to get out immediately.

Of course, still no jobs, so I can't support myself at all.

I've become even more downtrodden about my unemployment, as I fully expect to find full-time work (via a variety of jobs, if necessary) that are unpaid, or intern, jobs. Even if I am paid at these internships- or at any pair job I qualify for, this is all well and good in 6 months - 2 years. Right now, I've got no financial growth.

My current strategy even involves going "Help Wanted" sign hunting door-to-door in select areas. I expect to seed applications wildly and throw out resumes like candy. To jobs that, unfortunately, suck, and don't inherently utilize my education or previous experience.

So, nearly two months later, I apparently still can't catch much of a break.

[ar81]

Normally 6 months would be a reasonable time to look for work under normal conditions.

I'd say you should say thank you to the universe for not everyone has a chance to return to their parents home. Perhaps there are unsolved issues with your parents that need to be solved?

When I graduated I also had to move with my father. I knew that I either would have a fight because we had some issues back then, or we would learn to live in peace. We learned to live in peace and it really improved our relationship in the long term.

[Rockchick26]

I'm so sorry you had to move back home!! I am trying desperately not to have to resort to that, as I know I would be as miserable as you are now.

There have to be jobs out there you can do...I found a temporary part time job staying overnights at a teenage shelter, I start tonight in fact! I have no experience in this kind of work but luck was on my side, and luck can be on yours too! Now you have the motivation to get out of your parents house, so do anything you can, there is a lot of work out there but unfortunately a lot of people applying so you just have to keep trying!

Good luck!!

[Rabbit]

I'm posting this short message first to preface my following post:

This is going to be an update of the past month's activities as covered by the original post (moving back in with my parents, more job hunting, etc). This is also going to be a massive rant. Things have NOT improved one single iota.

This is going to be my final rant on the topic (well, hopefully).

I apologize sincerely in advance: this is going to step on some toes, and may come off as offensive to some. I do not intend to insult; I merely wish/need to speak my mind frankly, and some of this may come off as abrasive.

I also give my welcome in advance, for saying the bold things that need to be said by people that are in similar positions as me, and who would find what I am about to say helpful in some way (even if just to vent along with me).

I also have a request... No, perhaps a [very polite] demand:
I want the "big dogs" to step in the ring here: I want to see Steve and Erin and other major contributors drop their comments.
I feel that whatever your comments may be - despite whether you offer advice, chastise me (and others) for wallowing in self-pity, or even just leaving a random comment or thought - at least I would know that EVERYONE is conscious about what is happening to the people in this country, and not just the country itself.

So, I'll have to draft it up now. Please read when you get the chance, and thank you for your time in advance.

[Rabbit]

WARNING: RANT. See above for the preface to this rant.
/rant on


"You'll find something..."
"Don't give up, just keep looking..."
"Things will work out..."

These are my favorite one-liners for all of you out there who have no clue what it is like out there right now. Don't get me wrong, I love my mother to death (and the rest of you, for that matter) - I know that she just wants to cheer me up, and I know that she wants to instill some enthusiasm in not just me but herself as well. After all, you gotta have a good attitude if you want to get a job. Duh.

In normal circumstances or normal problems, these little one-liners might give some relief. But, as I've told my family, I'm going to [very respectfully] tell all of you here now:

*Please stop giving one-liners about how everything will be ok.*

This doesn't help, not in the slightest. It was good for the first month of demeaning job hunting, when I originally posted. And I truly do appreciate warm wishes and regards coming my way.
But after 3 months of hearing that nonsense, you just want to turn to the person and say, "Shut the heck up." [You can play with the diction here, I tried to keep it clean 'cause I don't want to intentionally step on toes.]

You don't know if it's going to be ok. I don't have the slightest clue when I'll ever catch a break. And every time I hear these cliche, one-liner 'pick-me-ups', I sincerely believe that it would feel much, much better to punch someone in the face than have to hear that again.
NOT TO SAY THAT I EVER WOULD, and I am definitely not a violent person. It's just... I get much more stress relief from beating my pillow into a soft mushy pulp, with all of my strength, then holding it against my face to muffle the loud screaming and following sobbing.

Honestly, I don't care whether or not you think the universe will ultimately provide for me. Or whether I'll finally snap out of it and 'get it done myself', etc (if you're one of those "get off your butt" types). I don't care about your opinion about the chances of my inevitable success - because frankly, for all we know, you could be dead wrong, and I may end up never going anywhere. And I wouldn't want to make a liar out of you. Plus, it gets on my nerves just a little after 3 months.
So please, kindly, stop saying that to me - and anyone else you know in the same situation - as it really is not helping at all, and in fact hurts.

__________________________________________________ ___

On that note - "Oh, wow, only three months job searching. You should expect to be doing it for much longer, even in good times."

I'm sure I'll get this response. Sure, it isn't terribly long, I suppose, to someone who isn't living day-to-day waiting for a miracle. Do you know how long three months feels, waiting... every... single... day... to hear good news?

Furthermore, let me put this on you:
A few days ago I did my own little 'career fair'. I got dressed up, got my resumes polished, cover letters for each individual business, got my business cards (both for my personal info, and for my volunteer group that relates to that field of business [beer in Texas]).

My day started out great, and in fact I was experiencing unprecedented luck in my errands before this 'career fair'.
I go to talk with these employers (one of which, giving access to 2/3 jobs I was looking at, I had met beforehand). I tell them about my situation - I want to get my foot in the door in the Texas beer industry. I realize by now that I can't walk in and expect any kind of 'entry-level' position utilizing my academic training. So ok, I bluntly describe (and even state in my cover letters) that I'm mostly looking for a job (full time), but would equally love an internship - EVEN AN UNPAID ONE, JUST TO GET SOME EXPERIENCE TO PUT ON MY RESUME.

All caps and bold for emphasis. Not a single d*** one of these employers were even willing to consider letting me come in part-time and GIVE THEM FREE LABOR. ALL I WANT IS RESUME FILLING, AND A GOOD WORD IN FUTURE REFERENCE CHECKS.

Two of the three were retail locations. One of them described an expected upcoming holiday rush. The other (from the man I was previously acquainted) said they were moving shops soon and that it would be hectic.

And guess what?
__________________________________________________ ___
I can't even get a position in which I'd be giving away free labor, with all the respect and intensity as if I were given the best full-time job ever.
I couldn't even get an unpaid position.
__________________________________________________ ___

I'm not underqualified for anything I've applied to by any means, especially not those three positions.
I graduated from the University of Texas in August of 2009 (just a few months ago) with a B.A. in Economics and a minor (with heavy concentration) in Business Administration. Final GPA of 3.083. Final semester GPA was 3.8 - and that was in summer school, taking 15 hours (which is over the maximum allowed course load - I had to get a waiver to be able to take that many hours). I have decent experience to put on my resume, although I never took any internships in college.

Thus, I'm just as averagely qualified as any other normal graduating student. No great internship or work experience, but great academic training in an excellent field from one of the country's (nay, the world's) finest institutions. I could use some experience/resume building, and that's what I'm looking into now - but there is nothing about me that is offputting to employers.





__________________________________________________ ___

The reason I am able to offer to work for free is because about exactly a month ago, I hit my "no-go" trigger in which the most promising job turned me down, and I hit the time limit to live on my own with my savings (which is really just leftover student debt money, I actually am a good $20,000 in the hole for loans - yay!).

Yes, I am extremely lucky that they would take me in, and that they only lived 15 miles away. All the same, it sucks going back. And as I think I mentioned earlier, there has been significant friction and some conflict as to how they view me coming back. They expect me to find work and make money - although I'm not expected to contribute financially (unless I hit paydirt and decide to continue to stay at home, which won't happen) - and are rather invasive and probing about how, what, when, etc. I am approaching employers, what my sleep time/work day should be like, etc.

Conflict has arisen because of my resistance to their wish to 'control' me. I have explained that I am not their 'child coming back to live at home'; I am their adult son who is coming to share a room in their house (as something like a tenant). They don't fully listen. I appreciate help and comments, but they insist on... "hovering". And I know that I am being judged. I need to get the hell out of here.

__________________________________________________ ___

After all this time since first writing this post, I'm still just as screwed as ever. What's worse is that I am feeling my sanity slipping. I can barely take the rejection any longer! I like to believe that I am a tough man, but I feel depression slipping in, and every time I get all suited up and excited about a potential avenue for my future (and consequently get shot down - hard) I find myself reeling for a few days. I am extremely emotionally volatile and find myself crying over this ridiculous job hunting activity.

To make matters worse, I have lost my very good (even 'best') friends over the past several months (an entirely separate story, but truncated - it's because they are a**holes who don't appreciate my friendship, don't reciprocate at all, and flake out/are never there for me in any capacity.
I have few friends left - some of which are truly great men - but not enough time (from both sides) to see them enough and establish more of a friendship.

I have no love live and no prospects, and although I know that the timing is not right for such a thing, I want and miss it very, very much. I am incredibly lonely.

I now live a bit too far away to enjoy the nightlife of my great city, and unfortunately living with mom & pop inherently limits the social life... in many ways.
__________________________________________________ ___

So, did I mention that this 'job hunting activity' is incredibly demeaning?

I no longer feel like I have much self worth. I can't even get a job working for free.

I no longer feel like a future entrepreneur - which has ALWAYS been my goal in life. I understand that to be an entrepreneur (especially a successful one), you have to have that vision, passion, and hard work. And you have to have your 'golden' idea too.
This negativity has brought on something akin to a "writer's block", and I no longer can create or engender any of these three qualities.

Logically, were I in my right mind, I'd say "To hell with this! I'm perfectly competent, and I have an excellent opportunity to have such low living expenses to pursue the planning and start-up phases." However, I am denied that ability. I feel as if I am not only blocked and damaged from all this upset and turmoil emotionally/mentally, but I also feel spiritually damaged. I don't have much faith in anything anymore.

I'm starting to feel the walls of my parents' place close in on me, and for the first time in my life, I become claustrophobic. I'm suffocating. I feel like less of myself and less of a person... and this feeling just gets worse every day.
__________________________________________________ ___

/rant off

Hopefully soon I can come back and finish this rant with some kind of question, or direction, to my post - and not just a wild rant from some whiny, self-absorbed young adult. In the meanwhile, all your comments are appreciated.

[Rockchick26]

Wow. I bet that felt good to let all that out! I feel like I could do a similar rant, I TOTALLY know how you feel to hear the "something will come along for you eventually" line. I've been hearing it for 9 months now. I did get a temporary part time job, but it's only for a month and it won't help me in the long run.

I am suspecting others on here will tell you that all your negative feelings are causing you to lose everything (your friends, your freedom, your self worth, your chances at getting a job)...I mean, this is a horrible case of downward spiral if I've ever seen one!! And I'm worried at where it'll lead next. I'm sure you feel like there isn't much worse than being an adult living in your parents house, with no job in sight, and no close friends.

If I were in your situation, which I very well could be after the next unemployment extension runs out (and if we didn't get anymore)...and if living at home drives me miserably insane...I seriously would join a commune. You don't need a job, because you work THERE, you'd be away from your family, you would become close with everyone in the community, and you're taken care of. And maybe they'd let you brew your own beer there!

Another option is to volunteer at a retreat center where you can live there in exchange for working there, I've found a few that have that program set up. At least there you would have peace and quiet and no parents hovering and judging and nagging...that's also another option i'm holding on the backburner in case I need to take drastic measures. These are not permanent solutions, although you could love it and want to stay, but i'm just saying they are a last resort that you can do to get away from your parents and get that connection with others that you are lacking right now. Food and shelter for "free".

Back to the subject though, it IS tough out there so your rant is fully justified, in my eyes.

Instead of offering words of hope and optimism for you, i'll leave you with this:

You can rant here anytime, I will listen.

[moonrambler]

Rabbit, I can't tell from your posts if you have been focusing exclusively on career positions and opportunities to get a foot in the door of the Texas beer industry, or if you've also been focusing on simply getting an income as well.

I don't know if you want to be specific about the types of jobs you've been applying for, but there seem to be two separate yet connected goals here -- beginning your career, and making money.

There are a lot of ways to make money right now, today. You may not be willing to do these sorts of jobs, though.

I also disagree that job hunting has to take at least six months for success.

I know it can be really gross to hear people cheerleading when you are having so much trouble.

Things can happen, though. One of my friends just got the ax from his job as a grocery store produce manager. He was a bit strung out after that, as you can imagine. He does have other income because he tends bar and has a photography business, although those two combined don't really supply the significant money as the other job did. He was also worried about health insurance because he has pre-existing conditions.

Within 2 weeks he was hired as a baggage handler for an airline and only has to work 20 hrs a week and gets full insurance coverage. Now he'll have insurance and income and more time to work on his passion -- photography.

This is a 52-year-old guy in today's economy, living in bohunk central Wisconsin, where the largest town is about 35,000 people, and the main airport gets 2-3 flights per day.

I'm not sure of the answers, but things do happen.

[The Big D]

Well, I ignored this thread up until now, but now feel compelled to comment because of that rant. My thoughts:

1) With that attitude, I would not have you as an unpaid intern.

2) Your parents are right to closely monitor what you're doing. You're pulling a classic "failure to launch" and I don't blame them for taking a rather dim view of it.

3) Time to support yourself doing whatever you can. Getting your foot in the door of a desired industry is all well and good, but you owe it to yourself and your parents and your creditors to earn some money.

4) Were I to see a security with an "ask" price of 0, I would assume the true value was probably negative (since real price is always <= "ask"). I would make the same assumption about a prospective employee.

[moonrambler]

Just to mention, Rabbit, I graduated from college in 1981, and if you type "recession 1981" into Google, you'll see that the economic climate was very similar. So I'm not just talking out of my ass.

It took me a year to get a full-time job and that job was not in any area of interest. In the meantime, I moved to a bigger town and moved in with a girlfriend who was getting divorced, and her little boy. I slept on a fold-out sofa bed in the living room. I tended bar, did cocktail waitressing, worked in commission sales, did a semester research project for a school district and did temp secretarial work.

BTW, one very cool thing that came about because of all that foolishness was the little boy (who is 29 now) thinks of me as his second mom

So you never know.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by The Big D

Well, I ignored this thread up until now, but now feel compelled to comment because of that rant. My thoughts:

1) With that attitude, I would not have you as an unpaid intern.

Well obviously Rabbit wouldn't be walking in there ranting to THEM, i'm sure he is professional when he has to be. They wouldn't even know about his attitude at all.

2) Your parents are right to closely monitor what you're doing. You're pulling a classic "failure to launch" and I don't blame them for taking a rather dim view of it.

That doesn't give them the right to smother and hover over their kids...most adults do not want to be treated like a child, and doing so only creates more conflict in an already stressful situation.

[Rabbit]

Thank you very much, RockChick. Although there is really nothing to say, you truly have comforted me in a way - if only in knowing that I am not alone.
And indeed, it did make me rather happy to have that off my chest.

Now it's rebuttal time.


The Big D - I do not wish to outright insult or in any way start some kind of fight here. But let me be perfectly frank and tell you that I find your comments completely non-empathetic and disrespectful. Either that, or there has been a grave misunderstanding that I wish to be made clear. I will illustrate my issues with your responses, point by point, now:

Originally Posted by The Big D

Well, I ignored this thread up until now, but now feel compelled to comment because of that rant.

This is a community for enlightening and helping people. If you are here, and present, and are conscious of the topics and issues of this forum, I submit that it is your responsibility as a person seeking self improvement to attempt to help others.
So when someone tells you that they are having one of the biggest crises of life - in which they cannot support themselves on their own - you turn a blind eye for two months??? Shame on you.
Please tell me somebody else finds this upsetting (in the least, perhaps disturbing at worst). And please tell me, why were you ignoring it before?

Moving on...



1.

Originally Posted by The Big D

1) With that attitude, I would not have you as an unpaid intern.

Exactly as RockChick explains - of course I don't walk into interviews/meetings/inquiries about current openings with any kind of negative attitude.
I went into two stores today after I saw (the rare) a 'now hiring' sign. I was driving, saw the sign, and immediately was overtaken by the urgency to get the hell in there and ask for work that I literally had to stop my car HARD (the first store, squealing the tires... at 15mph).
The second store was a Goodwill (which I have nothing against in the least) - which is a store I probably wouldn't normallyever even publicly admit working at. But I strode in, charming and enthusiastic, and asked about their 10-hour-a-week minimum wage night shift openings.

Now let me explain why you in this first point are wrong. I never enter any kind of employment-related situation with any kind of negative attitude. It's not that I'm even hiding it - I simply don't have negative, self-pitying thoughts that are projected to the potential employer. I enjoy those first few moments of inquiring about a listed (yet vague) posting. I take pleasure in practicing my 'self-pitch', if you will, and etc. In any situation.

I am willing to bet my very life and soul, here and now, that I have never projected any kind of unenthusiastic, negative, or in any way unattractive attitude. I'm naturally engaging and charming and I employ my social skills in any situation. So NO, this is not at all any part of my problem.



2.

Originally Posted by The Big D

2) Your parents are right to closely monitor what you're doing. You're pulling a classic "failure to launch" and I don't blame them for taking a rather dim view of it.

This simply must just be a message incorrectly transmitted / interpreted / whatever.

Like any parent, of course they have that subtle but detectable attitude that they want you to find success.
My problem is not that I'm just sitting on my butt or being irresponsible in the least. In fact, I try to juggle a full 8 hours of career searching and applying every day along with trying to do chores as a gift for my parents.

My problem in this situation is that I am in fact adequately doing the job search. I am in fact assisting the household in which I live (I try to pick up major chores so that my mom or dad won't have to do them - as much as possible) instead of just leeching. And yet, they still have the idea and make bold assertions that I'm not doing the job search right, that I need to shape my life a certain way for success and I'm doing it all wrong by myself, that I must live by certain rules of their own devising and live a particular lifestyle they deem 'best' for being an employed adult.

On a few of these points [with my parents], I disagree - and earlier they had been very very rude about my protests. Now, after some discussion and time, I'm getting a bit more breathing room. All the same; it's still, in my opinion, not appropriate for them to attempt to mandate my life and my lifestyle.
I am an adult, and I am trying to acquire (or engage in) one of the most important responsibilities an adult is faced with. Being treated like a child simultaneously is not helpful, and highly aggravating.



3.

Originally Posted by The Big D

3) Time to support yourself doing whatever you can. Getting your foot in the door of a desired industry is all well and good, but you owe it to yourself and your parents and your creditors to earn some money.

Um, yes. I've been saying that exactly. This is what I'm trying to do. This is my goal. I'm not blind or ignorant to my duties as a debtor OR a son to fulfill my consciously agreed-upon responsibilities.

I don't believe I've ever stated otherwise - did anybody else get the impression that I'm just selfishly pursuing my dream instead of giving all due consideration to extraneous responsibilities?



4.

Originally Posted by The Big D

4) Were I to see a security with an "ask" price of 0, I would assume the true value was probably negative (since real price is always <= "ask"). I would make the same assumption about a prospective employee.

Your metaphor here is... impotent and illogical - with all due respect. Perhaps I am simply just not understanding it... but the way I'm reading it:

Right you are- because volunteers, people who consciously begin a job/employment that pays less than something else they already had (for any reason), or people who discount their services - these people, in general of course, are not performing the *normal* value of their services (and I do mean economically/financially). That is an outright lie, and if you want to brawl with valuations then don't fight a economist.

There is an extremely high implicit reward just for getting experience in the field I want to be in. The utility I receive from gaining this experience - considering that the experience is what will open the doors to my ultimate "total" success (dream job + financial freedom) - is much higher than the utility I could gain spending that time earning minimum wage.

AND YES, TRUST ME ON THIS - there are ways of equating feelings of pleasure/reward and/or other implicit feelings with money (e.g. dollars). Utility is our ultimate input. That is what counts.


Furthermore: I've explained to ALL of the employers so far (after asking about open paid positions and internships, of course) my situation, my desperation for experience, and my willingness to do whatever it takes to learn those skills and build my resume for future success. Only then I pull out the "I'll be your slave for free, no strings except that you acknowledge I 'worked' for you" card and offer it willingly.

Relating back to the first half of this point-four-rebuttal: given this information (which should be all pretty obvious- do you take me for some sort of imbecile? ) do you sincerely believe that an employer, after being briefed on my 'will-work-free-just-for-experience' willingness, considers my offer to volunteer for them a clear indication that I am worth nothing, or even less than nothing?

On that note, I wish to verbally chastise you very harshly about such a comment. The implication that my willingness to sacrifice wage for a time in exchange for labor makes me worthless or less than worthless is truly and deeply insulting. I sincerely hope that I simply misunderstood what you were attempting to say.


In summary, I'm ranting on these boards because I feel like I'm being dealt a very poor hand, and I am scared for my mental health because of what this degradation to my self-worth and stress from continual worrying about money. I just came to rant, and of course I would love positive words* (see previous post... ) and even advice, but I'm not looking to be told, even more, that I'm inadequate in some way. I don't appreciate that.




Also, moonrambler- I chased my dream field pretty much alone for the first month, and decided it was not very likely, so since then have been spending about 1/3 of my time on landing a position in my dream field (including time spent working on my volunteer group, which I hope leads to future opportunities) and the other 2/3 of my time selling old things I don't want/need to earn a little money and am hardcore searching for ANYTHING.

Of course, at first switching, I was still only looking at entry-level positions. Only about maybe late in the second month of searching (and since) that I realized I had to go lower. And within the past month, I've accepted the notion of unpaid internships, minimum wage night shifts, and jobs that I am incalculably more overqualified for (of course, they won't mind). I am looking for ANYTHING AT ALL to occupy my time in a positive way to build my career or earn some money.


And thanks again, RockChick, for sticking up for me . It's really nice, although disturbing in this context..., to know that I'm not alone in this hell.

[Rockchick26]

Your welcome, Rabbit...I think this is just one of those situations where people can't know how it is unless they're in it. And yeah it sucks there are so many people in it these days, hopefully that will change soon.

[ar81]

I know what it is to come to a job fair in a time of crisis and se hundreds of applicants. I know what it is to be in the line with some 200 people in front of you.

I know what it is to look for a job in a time of recession. Believe me. I have lived that in the past. And I have lived that in a country where there was no stimulus package when recession used to hit.

I can tell you one thing for certain. If you do not feel you can do it, you are not likely to do it. To look for a job you need a high self esteem and the conviction that you will do it, and the stubborn determination of doing it.

Giving up takes people to nowhere.

Right now it is specially hard if you are not used to crisis. I understand that. What do you think about countries that have been living in crisis in the last 50 years? Economists in US (do not worry I am not blaming you, since you were not back then) have told that in a time of crisis, government should slice jobs. I was there when that happened. And I strangely see that suddenly US does exactly the opposite.

Current economy is the result of what economists that came before you had planned in the past. It is the result of a way of thinking.

But what is certain is that during a battle, when under heavy economic fire, hiding in a hole of lack of hope will not get you anywhere.

Right now there is groupthinking, the herd is depressed. Will you be part of that herd of people?

I had to struggle to survive during 15 years of my life in the midst of an economic crisis. I know what it is to be like you, as crisis hit the exact next year, a couple of months after I graduated.

Companies were firing people, some others were not hiring, and on top of that, government was firing people. Sons had to build walls in the houses of their parents to turn one house in two, so they could have a family.

Husband and wife had to work to make a living. Having an apartment for you alone was unaffordable.

Many countries in the world have suffered this. Mine did too. There is an atmosphere of pessimism and it lasted for 10 years. One of the reasons why I mess with economy and politics, while in the past I did not care, is that politicians and economists make mistakes, and you pay the price.

I decided that I needed them to let me live my life.

Previous administrations caused a crisis. If the root cause is solved, then crisis wil end. If not, crisis wil continue and will get worse. Unfortunately economy is still a primitive and rough science, so this is your chance to question it and improve it. It will require critical thinking, questioning the foundations of everything you learned.

[Sam kovacs]

I'm sorry rabbit, but Big D's right.
You're contradicting youreself. First you say you don't want one liners encouraging you, next you accuse Big-D of being non empathetic.
He's entirely right. If i was an employer, i wouldn't consider meeting you.
And there's an elephant in the room right here.
And I'll go ahead and say it, please don't be offended, I don't wanna be mean, but sometimes a good ol' slap is what people need.

The way I see it, you're not going to succeed unless you change, big time.

[kniyogi]

Rabbit,

Looking at your situation from the outside, it seems as if you are pathologically obsessing about finding a job, because you have run out of money--thereby setting yourself into a downward spiral. The more you pathologize about this and the more obsessed you are, the more desperate you will feel and the less positive the outcomes. My advice would be to stop pathologizing the situation and to be more compassionate with yourself. Look at the things which are in your control and say to yourself "These are the things in my power/control and I will do the best I can and not beat myself up if someone refuses to give me a job". A few things you can try out :

- Be very compassionate with yourself. This is the time when you need *yourself* to be kind and gentle and discard the harsh critic. A common behavioral cognitive technique is to catch yourself whenever the critic comes up and ask yourself whether, what the critic is saying is reasonable. Then frame the thought in your head in more "reasonable" language such as "I have done the things in my control to the best of my ability".

- Ask yourself what the very worst thing that can happen if you do not get a job within a few months-- will you still have the basic things such as food, shelter and clothing ? If worst comes to worst and you don't have a job in a year--whats the worst that can happen? You are a fresh graduate-- you still have 50-60 years of life ahead of you-- surely you will be able to achieve some of your goals when you have that much time left in your life. Losing patience is losing half the battle.

- Consciously do things every day to take your mind off the job hunting-- so that you do not pathologize over it. If you do not have enough friends you can join a group on meetup.com and get together with people who share some common interest. Spending time with people can be very therapeutic in these situations. You can play tennis/soccer-- anything which will give you some good company and take your mind off the job hunt. This might make you feel that not having a job is not the worst thing in life. You might start to shed off some of that desperation.

- Another idea might be to start your own blog in some of your interest areas, such as breweries. This will take your mind off the job hunt too. Treat the blog as a research journal. Collect research material in the area and make it a point to update the blog at least twice a week. Gradually you will see your confidence starting to rise, and all those rejections may not feel as painful as before. You may even start referencing the blog or website while talking to potential employers down the line. Of course you need to give it some time before you can do some research yourself and put something of value in the blog.

Thats all I can think of for now--hope it meets your criteria of not being fluff-- all the best.

[ohTen]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

You can only do [internships] if you are in college (I've checked).

that's not true at all. many internships require applicants to already hold college degrees. i know several people who were were still doing internships two years after graduating (several different ones; internships can only last a certain amount of time). still, it sucks to not get paid for work when nobody's subsidizing your survival like they do in college. but more and more, it's something you just have to do.

[ohTen]

Rockchick (a lot of this is applicable to Rabbit, too)-

Quit making excuses and lamenting your perceived powerlessness, and you'll be able to make whatever you want happen. You are the only person in control of your life. You are the only person in control of yourself. Something tells me that you don't really want a job any of the things you say that you want badly enough to make them happen (or more accurately, you're not willing to step out of your comfort zone as much as you need to). If you did, you:

1. wouldn't be making excuses as to why you can't do them, how now's not a good time, whatever.

2. would believe that you could make it happen.

3. would be able to identify what you needed to do and things you needed to change to get where you wanted to be.

4. you'd take those actions and make those changes.

You don't have to be a genius or particularly insightful to accomplish any of these things. Nobody who's been successful or gotten what they want in life will say that they waited until everything was safe and in working order to go for what they wanted. The whole point is that you have to take risks to get anywhere. You also have to hold genuine, unshakable belief and confidence in yourself and your capabilities. THAT comes across to employers and makes them want to hire you!

Don't wait until everything is just right. It will never be perfect. There will always be challenges, obstacles, and less-than-perfect conditions. So what. Get started now. Each step you take makes you stronger, more confident, and more successful.

I forget who said that, but it applies to everything - being more sociable, joining Toastmasters, getting a job in the music industry. Can't afford Toastmasters? Do it anyway. Figure out a way to make it happen. If you want it badly enough, it will fall into your lap.

The definition of insanity is to keep taking the same approach and expect different results. I have no sympathy for people who perpetually make excuses as to why they can't change and believe they are entirely victims of circumstance. you have total control over your being. don't wait for other people to change you. it'll never happen.

(Rabbit: change your approach. get creative. take bigger chances while you have the security of parental support! also, have you thought about going to graduate school? it's much easier to find financial support for grad school than undergrad, especially if you go on the doctorate track.)

"a ship is safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are for."

[The Big D]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Well obviously Rabbit wouldn't be walking in there ranting to THEM, i'm sure he is professional when he has to be. They wouldn't even know about his attitude at all.

This, and Rabbit's similar comment, really insult the intelligence and perceptiveness of the people considering hiring him. You think they don't pick up on his attitude? You think they don't pick up on how needy he is? How down he is? How little he values himself?

Funny and related story: a woman I used to know graduated with a BA in music - she was an opera singer. Tried like hell to get a good job - no decent company would hire her. She NEEDS a job so she cuts her ambitions back and travels the country auditioning with all sorts of little backwater operas. Nothing doing. Finally, she gives up and decides to write a book on how ridiculously impossible it is to get an opera job, and to get material for the book she's going to keep doing auditions. I don't even really need to tell anyone what happens - next audition, she's in at a major company (something in NY I think - I don't follow opera). Coincidence? I doubt it. The problem wasn't her singing voice. It was her attitude.