I got a $25 penalty for a 25 cents overdraft - any solution?

[bluedragon]

I'm starting to believe in bank slavery - I have an account in the US (at Charter One), and I made a withdrawl here in Romania for about 30 dollars. I exceeded the amount available by 25 cents. I didn't know that going into overdraft was possible when I'm not in the US.
Anyway - how can I fix this (without paying, I mean).
I already sent them an e-mail, but I doubt they will understand, and I have 3 days to decide if I want to ask a friend who is currently in the US to pay the sum for me.
I really don't want to pay that sum. I need it. Can I use a darkworker approach? Can I threaten them that I will write a blog post about them? Do you think I can reason with them?
Thanks

[Lil Chris]

You may be able to reason with them, just tell them what happened politely, if not consider it a lessen learned (expensive one I know).

One thing you might be able to do is, ask them if they offer overdraft protection (if they do) open a savings account with that same bank and stick a 100.00 in there. Then if you ever are overdrawn again they will just take the overage amount from the savings account. This will save you from wasting money by being overdrawn...

Good luck to you...

[James81]

Your only hope is that this is the first time you've overdrafted and you go in and ask them if they'll drop the fee. They'll do that sometimes if you aren't a chronic overdrafter and it happens very infrequently.

Aside from that, there is absolutely nothing you CAN do. You overdrafted (even in such a small amount), so you'll have to deal with the consequences of that.

Like the dude above me said, though, set up some overdraft protection on your account if you can.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I exceeded the amount available by 25 cents. I didn't know that going into overdraft was possible when I'm not in the US.

I'm sorry but I'm with the banks on this one. Overdraft is overdraft. You can try to beg and plead, but don't be mad if you have to pay it. The fee is $25 whether you overdraft by $1 or $1000. It is what it is.

In the future look into getting Overdraft Protection. Or just keep some money in it at all times that you won't let yourself touch.

Write off it as a learning experience.

[sirkinm]

I've had overdrafts reversed in the past, and I know a lot of people who have as well. Their standard line is, "Sorry, we can only do that if it's a bank error (which it never is)." But if you ask nicely and tell them about your circumstances, they will probably reverse it, esp. if it's the first time.

They will almost certainly reverse it if you opt into overdraft protection, a new savings account, or some other new feature.

[Apollia]

Sorry that happened, bluedragon.

I guess my post partly just repeats some of what others said, but, there are a few things others haven't mentioned yet, so, I guess my post is worth posting...

You might have some luck if you ask them nicely to remove it. Even loathsome credit card companies have on rare occasions done me the favor of removing late or overlimit fees or lowering my interest rate (back when I was still paying and was almost 100% reliable), but they probably wouldn't have done that if I hadn't been nice and polite, and hadn't had a good, reliable record.

With Providian, I had better luck writing them an email than talking to them on the phone. But, sometimes talking to someone does work. It seems to depend a lot on the person you talk to. Sometimes you reach surprisingly nice people, other times you get people who you can tell just don't really care.

So, if the fee isn't removed, but the bank has multiple people answering calls, it might pay off to call at different times or on different days, and make the same request of different people.

Can I threaten them that I will write a blog post about them?

I recommend just patiently being nice and polite, and calling on different days/times in the hope of talking to different people.

If you still don't luck out, then maybe slightly escalate by saying something like, "This seems really unfair, a $25 fee for a 25 cent overdraft? Sorry, but this is not giving me any reason to wish to continue to do business with (bank name)". And then maybe throw in a compliment like "Which is a shame, because I really liked your bank and found its services very valuable and useful."

(Of course, I only recommend complimenting them if you can be honest. I don't think I could truthfully say I really like any bank, but I can at least honestly say I liked their services - just not their horrible disservices).

If they still don't remove it, then I'd tell them, "Sorry, but if this fee isn't removed, I'm going to close my account." If that didn't work, then I'd close the account and start a new one elsewhere. (Or, preferably, get by without a bank account from then on. But if I really needed one for some reason, and could trust that any money I put in it wouldn't be snatched by creditors putting a levy/garnishment on my account, there's a chance I might cave in to necessity).


Actually, I don't think I'd ever get around to telling them I'll write a blog post if they don't remove the fee. I wouldn't really want to use that as leverage, because I wouldn't want to feel obligated _not_ to write such a blog post in return for them removing the fee. I think it's good to inform people of the unethical practices of banks.

At most, if they removed the fee and never mistreated me in other ways, I would likely do them the favor of not mentioning them specifically by name in a blog post (which seems fair enough, because they're far from the only bank with such egregious, unfair fees, so why single them out?), but I wouldn't mention that to them, nor say anything to them about blog posts at all.

If you plan on keeping and continuing to use that account, it seems prudent not to do anything that will tick them off too much or make you seem like a problem customer, instead of just a nice person who accidentally made a mistake.


It's so ridiculous how these banks shoot themselves in the foot and needlessly alienate customers by unfairly vampirizing them in any way they think they can get away with - from overdraft fees, to ATM fees, to supposedly doing you a favor by selling you "overdraft protection" to solve a problem they created in the first place.

And I guess since probably all banks (unless I'm mistaken) have these ridiculous overdraft fees, they _can_ get away with it, because there's no good alternative for people to become customers of. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone).

Perhaps buying overdraft protection would be good from a practical standpoint, but if I used banks at all anymore, I don't think I could stomach the idea of helping the banks profit from making life more difficult for their customers by the banks' refusal to simply block charges from going through if those charges happen to exceed the amount of available funds.

If only someone (or preferably, many people) would start some banks and credit card companies which are actually fair.

Good luck with everything, and I hope you get the fee removed. If they don't remove it, you'll at least be able to take some satisfaction in the thought that your criticisms of them might rescue a lot of people from getting hit with horrible fees and other dirty tricks.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[ChrisN]

0.25c is kinda a lame amount for them to charge you $25 from but it is bank policy so they probably wont drop it, good luck though

[ginkgo]

If you have been a loyal customer for years and this is your first time and you talk to them, then they will let it go. But if not, then they do not even want your busieness. An overdraft of any amount causes problems for them that they do not want. In fact technically it is illegal to attempt to make a payment with money you do not have. That is what a charge card is for and they make you pay for using it. If you try to steal 25 cents or $10,000 from the bank, it is still stealing.

[RT Wolf]

Here’s how I negotiated out of bank fees « I Will Teach You To Be Rich
Here’s how I negotiated out of bank fees — part 2 « I Will Teach You To Be Rich

Second link contains almost a script. Enjoy.

[bluedragon]

Thank you a lot for your encouraging responses. I am sure I will succeed in convincing them.
The penalty already reached $100 because 11 days have passed. I received the letter only yesterday.
I'm blowing this thing way out of proportion but I can't help it. I find it profoundly wrong and unacceptable to pay this sum. I don't care if it's "fair". It's inhuman, as are most laws anyway.

[bluedragon]

After talking to customer support (including a manager), and explaining my discontent in a pretty decent English I think, I was able to obtain the refund of one of the two $35 overdraft fees. I still have to pay 25+35.
I don't know if this is a good business policy and if conforming to such demands is the attitude of a conscious person (which perhaps I am not), but I see no other way now than to pay it.

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

The penalty already reached $100 because 11 days have passed.

That's terrible!

That's even worse than my credit cards with their late and overlimit fees of $35 or $39 apiece (and penalty-rate interest), since those only get applied once a month.

I'm blowing this thing way out of proportion but I can't help it.

I don't think you're blowing it out of proportion at all. In our societies, the amount of money we have can directly affect the quality of our lives, and our amount of access to such vital things as health care, food, shelter, things which could increase our earning power, etc.

Gandhi once said "Poverty is the worst form of violence." I can think of worse forms, so I don't _fully_ agree with that quote, but, I definitely think increasing someone's impoverishment (especially in ways other than providing genuine and equivalent (or better) value in voluntary exchange for their money) is a horrible thing to do.

And since economically oppressing/impoverishing someone can be so harmful and devastating to people even on a physical level, seeing it as a form of violence seems quite justifiable to me. Lots of people's lives are cut short by inadequate health care, poor diet (or actual starvation), and other things which are largely the result of lack of money.

Hmm, here's an interesting term/concept I just found out about now, as I was looking up that Gandhi quote: Structural violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find it profoundly wrong and unacceptable to pay this sum. I don't care if it's "fair". It's inhuman,

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by bluedragon

After talking to customer support (including a manager), and explaining my discontent in a pretty decent English I think, I was able to obtain the refund of one of the two $35 overdraft fees. I still have to pay 25+35.

Those fiends! What they're doing is totally unacceptable, in my opinion. $25 was already outrageous, but $60, accrued in only 11 days as a result of a mere 25 cent mistake, is absolutely despicable and ought to be criminal (in my opinion).

Always remember that you can take your business elsewhere. There are tons of banks in America. I would be extremely surprised if Charter One were the only bank which allows Romanian folks to open accounts. Actually, I've heard credit unions are supposed to be better than banks for some reason (even though they still probably have lame fees, etc.), so maybe you should try looking for a credit union instead.

In your shoes, I would be so infuriated by those fees, I would almost not even be able to consider using that account anymore, even if they removed all the fees. Paying them would be almost totally out of the question, even if it destroyed my credit report.

I still might try not show them my anger, though. Lots of people don't react well to anger, even justified anger, so if you call again, getting them to remove the fees might be easier if you only show that you feel hurt, and shocked at the unfairness, and also act like you still have some interest in using the account if they undo their legalized thuggery. (I wouldn't phrase their actions as "legalized thuggery" to them, though, even though that's exactly what it is. ).

Maybe you could even say (if it's true) that this is a huge amount of money for someone in Romania to pay, and/or that you can't really afford it, and will have to close the account if all the fees aren't removed. Maybe the person you talk to will be sympathetic.

Whatever happens, I think I would find it so impossible to trust that bank after all this that I would avoid using the account ever again. After they remove the fees, I'd just let it sit for a while, then call later and close it whenever it's convenient for me and I have a new account set up at some other bank or credit union.

I probably wouldn't gloat at them even when closing my account, just in case they might try to cause trouble for me somehow, like by messing up my credit report. (However, if your credit report is already hopelessly ruined somehow, there's less reason not to gloat and tell them things like, "You could have kept me as a customer if you hadn't slammed me with all these unfair fees", etc.)

Putting up a web page deploring practices like these is definitely a satisfying, anger-relieving thing to do, and I think it's a good way of using anger constructively, in a way that might actually help others.

I don't know if this is a good business policy

Yours or theirs? Theirs: definitely bad business policy. Their word of mouth is probably awful by now, and they've probably lost tons of customers and potential customers through their horrible policies.

As for whether paying them is a good business policy - I don't think paying these fees would be good, because it rewards their despicable actions, encourages them to think they can get away with this stuff, and might make you look like a profitable, easy mark for future nonsense they might attempt.

On the other hand, a good credit report might be an important thing to have if you want to open up other bank accounts. I actually don't know it it's important or not, though. I also don't know if overdrafts go on your credit report or not.

and if conforming to such demands is the attitude of a conscious person (which perhaps I am not), but I see no other way now than to pay it.

Well, as long as you carefully and open-mindedly considered all of your options, but chose this because you really feel it's the best choice for a logical reason like simple practicality, wanting to choose your battles and save energy and time - I guess that seems conscious enough to me.

What might not be so conscious, in my opinion, is if you pay it because of an unconsciously-accepted attitude of internalized oppression - a belief that just because you made a tiny 25 cent mistake, that it's perfectly acceptable and justified for the bank to rob you of $60, because you believe things like:

"I deserve it, this is my fault, not the bank's, the customer is always wrong, I'm bad, so I should just suck it up, pay up, put up and shut up. I made a mistake, it was a tiny mistake but that's no excuse, I have to take full responsibility for this, it's all my fault. This is just like if I was stupid enough to walk down a dark alley - a mugger should have every right to mug me, because I was stupid and made a mistake, and thus deserve all the consequences I get as a result of my stupid actions. I should thank my mugger/bank for teaching me this incredibly valuable lesson", and other self-hating reactions which I consider total nonsense.

You don't seem to have that problem, at least. Which is good, because people who believe they deserve bad treatment are probably even more truly enslaved than someone in the exact same situation, but who still has the healthy self-respect to at least consider such bad treatment unacceptable and deplorable, even if they don't outwardly rebel against it.

If I ended up paying, keeping and using that account, it would probably be because for some reason I considered that my strategically best move, and I would probably look at it this way: that I had the foresight/discipline/self-control/whatever to restrain my fury for the sake of long-term gain, instead of bringing excessive ruin on myself just to prove a point that only costs me $60 not to prove, or to prove later and more powerfully and effectively.

Good luck, and I hope everything works out for you. Maybe others will think of some more advice. (Hopefully better advice than "don't listen to that extremist Apollia - you deserve those fees, so bow down to the banks, and pay up, and like it" )

Also, maybe this blog I found will cheer you up, it's both humorous and on topic: Charter One Sucks

Best wishes,
Apollia

[WordKeeper]

If you are an American living in Romania then write your Congressman and Senators, especially if any are on the Banking committees. Send a copy of the letters to a bank manager as well.

Be specific. Include dates of penalties and date of notification. Cong. love news worthy (outrageous) stories about banks getting over on constituents these days.

I believe you can get these fees rescinded. Go at it with a positive attitude believing that you will be successful. Imagine what the conversation would be like and how it will feel to work with a helpful bank employee.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by Apollia

...
Best wishes,
Apollia

Thank you very much for your long message. You really took your time to write it I will pay it because I don't want the American IRS to come after me or to create other problems. But this is obviously a decision made out of fear, cause I don't believe it is normal for me to pay. But I have no idea what the consequences can be.

Anyway, I am not mad anymore, cause yesterday, while I was waiting at my bank to make the transfer, I was reading the last pages of "the Power of Now" and I finally understood (or rather, I finally was able to apply) the advice in it. I realized that this sum of money may never affect my life in any way, since right now (and even this month), I don't need any more money than I have. And if I will eventually generate a sufficient stream of income to exceed my expenses, than this incident will have zero significance (except for the fact that I wasted so much energy getting angry). I knew this from the beginning, but I just wasn't able to act intelligently.

Originally Posted by Apollia

Hmm, here's an interesting term/concept I just found out about now, as I was looking up that Gandhi quote: Structural violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is very interesting. Modern societies are such complex systems... it's hard to know anymore when you are being abused and when thing are fair (whatever that means). All I know is, if everybody would be happy with very little, those conflicts wouldn't appear anymore. I, for example, would be unable to behave in any way that another would consider cruel. If I was the director of a bank, I would spare the penalties to everybody with a 25 cents overdraft

Anyway, these boundaries or conventions (like the overdraft) are too rigid in my opinion. Maybe everything should be incremental - 25 cents overdraft -> 1 dollar penalty; 50 dollars overdraft -> 100 penalty and so on.
It's the same with other penalties: if someone commits a criminal offense by mistake - he gets jail time, but if someone makes the same mistake 100 times, but he is lucky and the mistake doesn't result in a criminal offense - he's just called stupid - but no jail time.

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Thank you very much for your long message. You really took your time to write it

You're welcome. It was fun. Criticizing banks is almost one of my hobbies.

I will pay it because I don't want the American IRS to come after me or to create other problems. But this is obviously a decision made out of fear, cause I don't believe it is normal for me to pay. But I have no idea what the consequences can be.

I think probably the worst things that might have happened from not paying (without getting the fees officially removed) might have been some bad stuff being put on your credit report, and having to start a new bank account (and that possibly being harder because of the bad stuff on your credit report). I'm not really sure, though - things might be worse than (or not as bad as) I think.

I don't think the IRS cares at all about this sort of thing, but, I could be wrong. The IRS is even obnoxious enough to regard barter as "taxable income" despite the fact that no money exchanges hands. That surprised the heck out of me when I heard about that.

So, you're probably right to be wary, since who knows what other nonsense the IRS might try to perpetrate next.

I realized that this sum of money may never affect my life in any way, since right now (and even this month), I don't need any more money than I have.

Glad to hear you don't actually need the $60, and that anger isn't clouding your mind as much as it would be clouding mine.

Wishing you wealth and all other good things,
Apollia

[Indiana]

I had a similar situation. I rang my bank to say I was changing banks due to poor customer service. I asked them to transfer all the money from all my accounts to my new bank, which they did, and close my accounts, which they said I had to come in and do in person.

The next day I went on an overseas trip for two and a half months. When I got back, I went in to close my empty accounts and found to my astonishment that the bank wanted me to pay over $250 in fees and penalties.

They had continued to deduct monthly account fees from my accounts ($1 on each of three accounts, for 2 months, as they were entirely inactive). This put me into unauthorised overdraft. I never organised an overdraft facility as in my 17-year history with the bank I had never needed or wanted one. 3 x $25 penalty fees for two months plus penalty interest came to an outrageous amount. And they said they wouldn't close the accounts till I paid, so the situation would only get exponentially worse.

I told them flat out I wasn't paying. I said I would pay the $6 in account fees and that's all. Otherwise I'd take it to the banking ombudsman as manifestly excessive. Eventually they realised I wasn't kidding and they agreed, just to get rid of me, I think.

I don't know if that really helps but it sure felt good to get off my chest.

[Brutha]

I think probably the worst things that might have happened from not paying (without getting the fees officially removed) might have been some bad stuff being put on your credit report, and having to start a new bank account (and that possibly being harder because of the bad stuff on your credit report).

As he isn't an American worse might man for him that it's impossible to get an account.

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Brutha

As he isn't an American worse might man for him that it's impossible to get an account.

Hopefully that's as bad as it would possibly get, but unfortunately, that's maybe not the worst thing. I forgot about a couple other possible bad things (stupidly, because I think I already mentioned them earlier in the thread).

If the so-called "debt" had gone unpaid long enough, the creditor/bank might have been able to go to court and get a court-ordered garnishment/levy on any American wages (if he ever got a regular job in America) or any other American bank account he might open (if he was still _able_ to open one).

Ever since my credit report got destroyed, I haven't tried opening any bank accounts, so I don't know if starting a new bank account is impossible or not with a bad credit report.

I also am not sure how common it is that bank account garnishments/levies happen, but it happened to a close relative of mine who had about $200 or $230 suddenly seized right out of her account, leaving it empty. That is one of the many reasons I will never trust banks ever again.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I don't know if that really helps but it sure felt good to get off my chest.

I applaud you. It brightened my day.

Best wishes,
Apollia