To SBI or not to SBI

[darkun]

Hey there smart people.

I'm a brand new member and as a direct result of Steve's inspiring words and recommendation I am looking to start my first website with SBI. However I am concerned that SBI seems simply too good to be true, and I would like some further reassurance if anyone can offer it...

thanks

[Pegasus]

Take a look at this thread, which goes on for five pages:

Site Build It! (Blog)

[DavidDavidDavid]

Darkun: exactly what do you mean by "too good to be true?"

Don't take their marketing hype too seriously (it's hard to, actually; they do it in the tacky way of those 2 a.m. radio spots for hair renewal). But what you need to do is ask yourself what it is that you want to accomplish, and how SBI! might help.

I'll be three months with them come the 16th, and I am pretty disappointed that I can't even load up a simple .ani or .cur file because they don't support it (and they don't answer me why not, except to say that "it was a policy decision that was made"). Moreover, I have been, for almost two weeks now, trying to resolve why their server keeps screwing up my very simple JavaScript image-swap. It took three days and three different reps before they even acknowledged I had a problem for which they are responsible for resolving (as soon as they saw the word "JavaScript" they immediately did the usual tech support thing and said it wasn't theirs, it had nothing to do with them, they only support their own stuff). It took another three days before they received my webpage and the accompanying images in question; for some reason I kept sending it (through Yahoo!) and they kept missing one file or another. Then after a message Wednesday morning that a supervisor was looking into the matter, nothing. Nothing since Thursday morning. Well, I'll give them an e-mail Tuesday and see what's up. Mind you, that's a simple image-swap I'm talking about -- onMouseOver, onMouseOut -- that works perfectly on my end but when uploaded to them gets screwed up. Yes, all necessary files were uploaded to them. No, nothing is wrong with my code/script. The worst thing, again, was technical support trying to get out of investigating the matter in the first place.

And that's not to mention the silliness that can happen in their private forums from people with psychological baggage -- since SBI! traffics in hopes of financial independence, and of course the people most susceptible to that kind of stuff are the tense and anxious ones among us. (And if it's simple mindless rah-rah multi-level marketing-style positive motivation you need, you can find plenty of it in the SBI! forums. As a matter of fact, mindless rah-rah is almost a requisite for posting.)

But for all that, I have to say that I viewed them as a learning experience from the git-go and feel that I have learned a lot, well worth the $300 I paid (I've since bought about that amount of money in books on web development, anyway [since SBI! will only cover so much ground, naturally enough]).

You have thirty days to get 100% of your money back, with a pro-rated refund anytime thereafter. For all my well-founded criticism of them ("hidden costs" like extra charges for blogs and forums, etc.), I applaud their generosity and fair-mindedness in that respect. They put their money where their mouth is, and of all that could be said about them, that itself says quite a lot.

So you have plenty of time to decide. Keep fiddling with it and see if it works for you.

Me, I'll stay with them for the learning experience. If you look as it as a learning experience, then you can't go wrong. Otherwise, back to my original question: what, exactly, is it that you want?

I would definitely recommend them for people who aren't interested in internet nuts-n-bolts -- and for people like myself who are, I would caution them to not ask too many questions related to nuts-n-bolts. It's a tool, and like any other tool, it will have its limitations. Typical newbies won't come up against those limits too soon, if at all, while newbies who are otherwise "tinkerers" just might, since SBI! can have an almost "monastic" bent of mind over there (not that that's bad in itself, necessarily) and don't welcome questions which could be construed as challenging the premises of their methods and operations.

[darkun]

DavidDavidDavid: Darkun: exactly what do you mean by "too good to be true?"

thanks for your reply,

It seems that the value exceeds the price, I would not like to sign up for SBI to find out in 3 months that I indeed do have to buy expensive addons.

I have been thinking about starting my own infomation site for a while, but never knew where to start. I've been playing with computers my whole life but never got into coding or building websites.

I really am looking for a way to launch my site and have all the fiddly bits sorted, so I can concentrate on my content. I doubt I would be using any products other than those included with SBI - however then I worry that I would be placing too much trust in one system...

I probably will choose SBI, if the costs are as they state. $300 isn't normally much money but i've only recently moved continents so things are a bit tight. Their site is rather convincing but as you said it does have that 'informercial' feel to it, which puts me on edge.

thanks again for your reply

[DavidDavidDavid]

Darkun: the add-ons are indeed add-ons, or "accessories" -- most sites don't actually need a blog or a forum, for example. All the same, those are features that are associated with websites these days, and I think many people would expect a webhost to offer them as a part of its basic package of services.

Like how bicycles no longer come with kickstands nowadays -- did you know that? Actually, they haven't for like the past ten or fifteen years. Apparently only kids' bikes and so-called "toy bikes" (brands like Huffy, etc.) still do. Now is a kickstand absolutely essential to the operation of a bicycle? No, certainly not. But I for one certainly expected it along with a bicycle!

Likewise, SBI! and certain features. I mean, it's 2008 and they won't let me upload an .ani or .cur file, and won't tell me why not except to say that they're not that important. Well, sure, and neither are emoticons for e-mail and forum posting (), but you know, every little bit does count after a while.

Anyway, just to clarify the blog/forum thing: the big -- and problematic, particularly for n00b-types who are the target demographic of SBI! -- issue is that those features require you to host them on *another* webhost, for which you pay *additional* hosting fees...so for instance, you pay $300 for a year of SBI! but another $100 or whatever for hosting a blog or forum on that other webhost!

You sound very much like me -- "playing with computers my whole life but never got into coding or building websites" -- so I'm particularly glad that this thread helps you out some. I had actually done the first website for Hunter College's German Department back in 1997-8, but it was a very simple HTML affair, with a few JS hacks of simple scripts publicly available, about ten webpages total, but that's all I've done since then, so I was looking into SBI! as a sort of "briefing" or "learning experience" to bring me up to date.

And learn I have, though that's because I've persevered through the rather messy "creative disorganization" that constitutes the SBI! "help files." So it's definitely quite possible to learn and grow with them -- only try it out to see if that's a style of learning you can take to (well, of course you *can* -- and I recommend that you do -- but some people don't have time to try to integrate disparate data on their own like that). Remember the traveling Jawa from Star Wars? It's a bit like that -- kinda wheel-and-deal sort of atmosphere, not an online college course.

You are correct in not putting your faith in any one system -- however, it certainly can work, depending on your goals. So, *exactly*, what do you hope to achieve? I mean, details, baby, details -- for yourself, I mean; make sure you know for yourself what those details are. SBI! can be rather like those famous old Ames Lee "Draw 50 Dogs/Airplanes/Dinosaurs/Famous People" books, each page detailing in like eight steps how to go from basic polygons to a full-fledged portrait, with everything very simple until the last two steps. That is to say, there's a lot that you simply have to learn on your own -- but they are certainly useful, yes (both the books and SBI!).

It's all a matter of how *you* learn and are able to assimilate or, better yet, "grok" the information. But no, they are very far from the Second Coming of Sliced Bread!

[darkun]

DavidDavidDavid:

Thanks again for your reply. I've been adding content on my prospective site for the last week - I'm rather impressed with myself.

The main aim for my site is to help other people looking for information on working and holidaying in the UK. If my site can make a profit whilst doing that then I would claim it as a success. Luckily for me as the startup costs are quite small the site would not have to generate much income to become 'successful'.

Also been thinking about one of SBIs biggest claims in which the say that 62% of users have sites ranked in the top 3% of all sites (i.e., higher than 97% of all sites on the Web) https://secure.sitesell.com/build/lifetime/

I'm not sure I understand this correctly, because as I would have it that means that if a search engine returns a result of 157,000+ finds, that my site would be in the top 4,700 of sites - which is pretty irrelevant really. I would want my site to be in the top 10... Have I made a mistake somewhere?

Another thing, I dont think I understand how Alexa works or what the result means? Could you clarify that for me?

Thanks again

[Brutha]

Alexa ranking haven't thta much to do with search engine traffic.

They want to measure eyeballs but aren't measuring very exactly.

In general most pages on the web don't have the purpose of drawing much undirected traffic.
The website of a toastmaster club for example won't get much traffic from people who aren't members of the club. If that website gets ten visitors who aren't club member per month that's a healthy number.

On the other hand websites that want to provide the visitor with content need a lot more visitors.

[dave marshall]

Hi,

I looked around for a while for software that suited me and a few years down the line now i agree with daviddaviddavid. Decide what you want the program to do, then see if it is worthwhile.

I am alittle biased as I love the prgram i use, link belew but aside from that if you want a blog, explore wordpress, it is free and you can pay for some low pay hosting and get a great blog. One of the reasons I chose Blue Voda was that the blog was part of the package as was an online shop, and a domain name and hosting. This package suits my purpose, if my purpose were diferent then mabye the SBI package would be better!

My advice is to see yourself 5 years from now and see if the package your considering would still be useful then and can grow as your abilities do.

Dave

[Tayrak]

SBI is geared toward beginners, it does cater to more knowlegable folks but for the most part it's the newbie crowd that benefits the most. They do try to be careful to point this out.

You can't be everything to everyone. Their main selling point, imho, is their action guide, which helps you go from step 1, through to getting a working site going. They help you pick a good niche, what keywords to use, how to get ranked for those words, mostly get free traffic through search engines, do all the coding stuff, and help go through the monetization stuff. Mostly I think that's where the strength of SBI is greatest. If I know nothing, this will help me get a site going that has a real chance.

There are triumphs and failures, as with everything. Some people get to quit their jobs just from the income off their sites. Some flop miserably. So it does work but the person using it has everything to do with it. SBI stresses this.

Sure there's hype, hey, you have the right to sell your product, and SBI does back its claims up. It does work. You don't make a sale by sitting quietly on the sidelines.

DavidDavidDavid
If you're having a lot of trouble getting help you can contact Ken Evoy directly, he's the owner/CEO, head hauncho, and he will get back to you. I'm really not into the deep end of coding so can't give you an inkling.

Tayrak

[darkun]

Hey folks thanks a bunch for all your help, I really appreciate it. There is still lots of work to be done before this site is up and running. Contacting my recommended service providers is going to be interesting. I've managed to get a couple of professional site builders to cast their eyes over my site (for free) and I've found a (tiny) investor to actually get my site launched.

Still think it will be a couple of weeks away yet - I have to now think about how I will process the earnings (if any) and how I go about paying tax and all that mumbo jumbo - so it seems I have to speak to an accountant who specialises in e-commerce. Still having a great time learning all about this new world that up until very recently I just didn't comprehend.

Thanks again guys - now I've got to get back to work

[DavidDavidDavid]

Tayrak: I don't think Ken will prove much help either; I've had dealings with him through the private forums on SBI! and you know what, he's a businessman who knows his business...and the sort of issue I described is somehow intrinsic to the way his business works -- something about their content management software just won't allow a relative path name for the first src attribute of an image-swap -- and he's not about tweaking his business over a little thing like that. I could go into more detail if need be, but suffice it to say for now that Ken knows his customers and I'm not the kind of person to whom they mean to market their service.

As for SBI! "backing up their claims"...you need to look closely at what they're using to back up their claims. They're using Alexa ranking -- that's the **sole** basis for their claims! And even then only a very tiny minority of their sites are Alexa 100K...believe me when I say that I hate to say it, but SBI! is just another late-night TV infomercial product. Think of all the juicers, steamers, ab-rollers, real estate schemes, and other such products you've seen on late-night TV infomercials: perfectly fine in theory, but you can usually get the same thing done on your own with only a little more fuss.

Not to get "down" on SBI! now, but you know what, they're selling their system, their way of doing things (well, what they're really selling is dreams of happiness, same as any other late-night TV infomercial)...now if they're selling their system, but there are still "triumphs and failures" same "as with everything" in life, as you put it, then what does anyone need their system for???

SBI! is like them ab-rollers or any other such ab-workout device sold by TV infomercials...you can just do crunches at home, but some people need a "gimmick" to get them going, you know? Same thing with SBI! I think. One could just visit the local library and google the web (that's how I found Steve Pavlina and then SBI!), but some folks just can't be bothered to do that. The ironic thing is that, like an ab-roller sold on TV, SBI! still requires **you** to do the actual work!! You wind up doing almost as much work as you would have before, anyway...you just don't realize it because SBI! provides a *fellowship* of sorts...that's probably the secret to its success as a business -- the need they serve is not, actually, webhosting, but a kind of fellowship for would-be entrepreneurs....

[DavidDavidDavid]

Darkun: Once you dig deeper, you realize that the SBI! marketing hype really is just that -- marketing hype. Alexa ranking turns out to mean almost nothing at all. It's not just low-res, as I'd originally thought: it's almost *no*-res...it measures nothing that can't be manipulated...its results are simply not trustworthy -- no advertiser is going to pay you rates based on an Alexa ranking, put it that way. Google the stuff and read it for yourself.

You are correct in deducing that the SBI! claim of "Top 3%" is meaningless...even 0.05% of 56 million websites is not very high, in money-making terms, even if Alexa ranking meant anything, and Alexa is the sole basis for their claims. (And I have to take Steve himself to task a little for perpetuating that myth in his "review" of SBI! when he knows full well that Alexa is an essentially worthless metric; yep, Steve definitely "pre-sold" me on SBI!, as they would say! It's really too bad he had to repeat their misleading sales pitch.)

Good luck on your site, Darkun; it will definitely fulfill a need -- just be sure to thoroughly think through how you will differ from your competition and devise the right promotional strategy...one thing, though: be careful not to spend too much money at first! If you're still with SBI! then be sure to check in on their private forums, which are great for small-time entrepreneurship advice and full of tips on leveraging the search engines for free (despite their disdain for SEO, that's essentially their business!).

Yes, I believe SBI! is a good product -- but not for the reasons it claims it is. I also think its utility is limited in scope and depth, but it's certainly a good "starter's kit" for newbies if you get it on sale.

[Tayrak]

Yup, you can do everything yourself that SBI does for you. No argument, there. What I find a lot of people have trouble with is knowing that 'what to do'.

Just an example. I started my site knowing some css and knowing I had to get visitors. I knew a bit about monetizing, nothing about getting search engine traffic. So I was pretty clueless. I searched the web a lot to find info. A great deal of what people tell you, just as many will tell you doesn't work. For a newbie that's real confusing.
I tripped over SBI. I don't part with my money easily. I read a bunch about it. I tried some of the things SBI implements. I got my first search engine traffic. Hey, I was thrilled. I dug some more and learned more about niches and keywords and all that stuff. It's made a huge difference.

Could I have done it without tripping over SBI, yes. I'm not sure how long it would have taken me though.

If you can code and know your way around the internet probably SBI isn't a big deal to you. If you're starting out and would like some solid help, SBI is a good place to be.

I guess it's pretty much if you got something good out of it, you like it. If you didn't get what you hoped for, it's not so good. Still for the price, even the full price of $299, it's a good deal when you consider the tools you have access to.

"SBI! still requires **you** to do the actual work!! You wind up doing almost as much work as you would have before,"

I've heard this complaint before, but you knew you would have to actually make the site? That's not an insult, we all read stuff differently so if that's what you understood I can see where you'd be disappointed. Yes, SBI is a lot of work, no argument over that one. And others have said the same thing. It's not for everyone, actually, the internet isn't for everyone.

Alexa ranking aside, I do know of some people who have quit their jobs and count on their sites to make them money.

You also have a coding problem and if that is central to your site then I can see where you're up against the wall.

I didn't sell it to you but if you want to chat before you throw in the towel you can pm me. I don't know enough about coding to get around that but there may be something else that can help.


Tayrak

[DavidDavidDavid]

Tayrak, thank you for reaching out before I decide to cancel my subscription. I really appreciate your offer because though it may sound otherwise I actually do leave with good memories of SBI! -- yes, good memories, of how helpful some folks on their private forums can be -- even though I believe now that on an overall basis it is not really for me.

I was very enthusiastic about SBI! before -- and I still believe that it's a good product, only very limited in "scope" and "depth," as I say, and thus something a real "web-enthusiast" will pretty quickly grow out of (the way a real health nut grows out of Jack LaLane's Juiceman, or a real fitness freak grows out of an ab-roller, etc.) -- but I want to build a website that happens to make money, whereas they're all about making money from building a website. As time went on, it became apparent that my goal was not theirs, and vice-versa. I really do want to put "value" on the web, whereas they highlight a subscriber who has a 40K Alexa ranked website (for what it's worth) that's nothing but photos of scantily-clad celebrities, a classic MFA (Made for Adsense) site. You also see a certain cookie-cutter sameness to their sites: take a look at any of the personal development sites SBIers have made, and not only do they all have the same layout, but their messages actually read pretty much the same! Holy Jehoshaphat, but it's like they all downloaded the same IM/LOA e-book and just changed the wording here and there and pasted it onto their homepages! So SBI! is all about making money, and it shows in the follow-the-trend mentality...newbies, indeed!

My comment about SBI! actually needing "work" was referring to a fact about their "system" that I'd caught early on: you still need, as they themselves say, "brains and motivation" (BAM). Well, what does SBI! actually offer, then? Someone who really had the BAM could just as well do it themselves. In fact, most such people *prefer* to do it themselves. Show me a car enthusiast who doesn't tinker with his own car, or a computer enthusiast who hasn't built his own rig, etc.

So who's SBI! actually for, then? Those who don't know any better. Yes, newbies. But the ones who are actually interested in web development (as opposed to just using the web to make some money) will find SBI! of limited utility, since their system is not very flexible. As a matter of fact, it's only this year, in 2008, that you are able -- with additional costs and technical learning curves (yes, appearances to the contrary, SBI! has its own technical learning curves; you need to learn to use their system! Well, if you must learn anyway, why not just learn web technologies from the start, instead of learning how to use a system that gives you a limited version of those technologies) -- to host a real blog on your SBI! site. Now, is a blog necessary? Not necessarily. ;-) But it's an indication of their state-of-the-art that something that was already old in 2005 is just coming on the line right now for them, and how mightily they trumpet it.

Look, please believe me when I say that I'm not complaining about SBI! -- but I truly believe that my report here in this forum is ***the only honest and complete*** SBI! review on the whole wide web. Yes, I challenge anyone to come up with a "critical" (not necessarily in the sense of "negative" but in the sense of "critical thinking") review of them. It's amazing but there's not one to be found within some 15 or so SERPs on either side. So it's really necessary that I speak out about this, about what they're really like, especially since even Steve himself is just parroting their meaningless sales pitch about "Top 3% Websites," a pseudo-claim based entirely on near-worthless Alexa rankings. That's just downright misleading, with all due respect to our host and capitalism and apple pie.

It's a good product, and I say that honestly -- however, it is far from what is claimed or suggested by their marketing. I just want to share with folks in what ways it is good, and in what ways it is limited. Really, it's like a TV informercial's product: sure it works, but no it's not what it looks like on TV....

They have a good refund policy, though, so I do still encourage people to give it a shot if they are interested; nothing to lose, so far as I can tell (certainly not if you approach it with an open mind as a learning experience) -- and y'all can count on me to give a full and honest "debriefing" when my cancellation request goes through. But don't turn off your brains and drink all the Kool Aid...if you would be a businessman, you need to keep in mind a businessman's perspective, not a customer's, if you take my meaning.

[Tayrak]

Fair enough.

Tayrak

[DavidDavidDavid]

As promised, here's my debriefing on my SBI! refund: the procedure is to use the Customer/Tech Support Contact Form on their site (in the members-only section). I'd thought I'd also let them know why I was canceling my subscription. Funnily enough, their reply included a "pep talk" of a form letter which had nothing to do with why I had stated I was quitting them! So I responded that I was indeed sure I wanted to cancel my subscription, and a rep politely asked if he may know a few more details, just for their information (in order to possibly improve SBI!), etc.

He accepted my ("third") answer without further question, and informed me that the refund can take up to a week to process. So today it's finally been credited to my account, and I can report that the SBI! money-back guarantee is 100% legit (not that I ever had any worries about that). Just to recap a bit: it's a good product for n00bs and businessmen, especially those who do not care for technical details. I do, however, and would be a "web developer" as well, and have concluded that SBI! is rather too limiting for my ultimate purposes. And though I did not care for the rudeness of some of the people on their private forums (put it this way: much as people here at Steve's have disagreed with me, no one's ever resorted to non sequitur ad hominem attacks -- and I wasn't even disagreeing with anyone over there!! Somebody just thought I was posting too much!!), I can also say that their forums have interesting small business advice just about every other day.

So, anyway, the refund guarantee is solid, as expected. If you're curious, you've got nothing to lose. If you're a thinker or a tinkerer, you might outgrow them pretty soon.

[Katy MacRae]

Thanks for your posts David. I have been following the SBI threads for a while, and am finally at a point where I really want to start my website (it's not about personal development, whew!) I see what you mean about motivation, I want to make the site for its own sake, I'd like to see it make money, but that would be secondary at this point. I'm not counting on quitting my day job.

That being said, I am willing to put in lots of time and effort, and I have good ideas for content. I know my way around a computer and did tech support for years, but I really don't know much about coding/ web stuff. I don't want to waste my time doing what seems to be "learning SBI" vs learning the web standards, but I just don't see any other services that will outline what I need to learn to get started. Many people have suggested Wordpress, etc. and I already have two domain names registered through Godaddy. I am a good student but I tend to need some structure before I can get over the hump, if that makes sense. I really just don't know where to begin, and thus put off beginning.

If you can suggest a structured alternative, I am all ears. Googling and reading bits here and there is probably going to feed into my procrastination and tendency to get overwhelmed. I'm definitely a noob at this and perhaps SBI is a "good enough" fit.

I'd like to have a blog and forums on my site someday, so the extra costs are a little offputting. I think someone asked this already, and I will do my best to find it, but what are the options if/when I do outgrow SBI? Can I take my marbles elsewhere?

best,
Katy