MSN Money article: Start investing with just $100

[elainevdw]

I apologize if this repeats any information already posted in this forum... feel free to refer me to other posts if necessary.

Basically, I've got the financial IQ of an eggplant, and I decided last week to change that. (I read Rich Dad Poor Dad over the weekend, and I'm your quintissential Poor Dad progency.) My issue currently is that I'm living completely paycheck to paycheck, with no credit card debt but a small student loan and a small consumer loan, and I need/want to start saving and investing as soon as I can. Browsing MSN Money, I ran across this article: Start investing with just $100.

It certainly fits my budget. Question is, is it sound advice? And if I follow through on what the author suggests now as a newbie, when I become more financially sophisticated, will I kick myself for doing it?

[joanmhe]

Hi -
I have only invested in 401ks and IRAs, and kick myself that I never did anything like this!
(I'm 50).
The advice this guy gives is similar to other articles that I have read recently.
However, if you have the chance to invest in a 401k, or do not plan to use the money any time soon - try a Roth IRA. You can invest in similar funds.

I recently reviewed the options my company offers and saw that any of the fund choices would have been better than the money market fund I had camped some money in. The point here is that these funds did do quite well in their respective categories, so some intelligence has gone into the choice of offerings, and they were much better than the 2% quoted in the article.
Good luck!
Joan

[ahimel]

Si. It's very sound advice, although you can usually start an account for much less than the stated minimum investment -- often as little as $0 -- if you sign up for autopayment to invest on a monthly basis.

Also, as Joan says, don't invest in a plain old individual account until you've maxed out your contribution to a retirement plan -- it creates HUGE tax benefits. If you're in the US and under about 50 years old, your best bet is almost certainly a roth IRA.

Also, see the thread on Managed Funds.

[elainevdw]

Thanks, you two. I was doing pretty well contributing to a 401K until I switched to a company that doesn't have a profit-sharing plan... I've actually been wondering what sort of retirement plan I should put my 401K money into. I'll check out those Roth IRAs, and keep this MSN Money article in mind, too.

Oooh, I'm so excited to learn more about all this stuff. My business-whiz BF has got to be getting tired of my kindergarten questions by now.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

I've actually been wondering what sort of retirement plan I should put my 401K money into. I'll check out those Roth IRAs, and keep this MSN Money article in mind, too.

Be careful putting 401K money into a Roth IRA -- you'll owe taxes on it. Sometimes still worth it (mostly depending on your age), but check with a qualfied CPA before you do.

Oooh, I'm so excited to learn more about all this stuff. My business-whiz BF has got to be getting tired of my kindergarten questions by now.

Welcome to the club.

[thef0x]

This money is gone until you're 65!

REMEMBER THIS!!!

You might try investing in a CD or something first because, as you're living check to check, you can get that cash much faster (9-12 months).

Yes, IRAs are awesome but no, they are not liquid.

[Vanessa]

Ah liquidity you wonderful monetary friend in case of emergency!

Funds that you put into your retirement account: roth IRA (post-tax money) or 401k (pre-tax money) should always be a percentage of income that you can afford to never touch. While I always put aside 10-20% of my money towards investments, I usually cap off the % of money for my retirment account at 5-10%. Also I keep in mind that there is an annual maximum contribution (varies by IRA type and your age).

I like having liquidity in my emergency living fund and my agressive growth investments just as much as investing for when I retire. Also, I really like self directed IRAs since I can mirror my personal investing style.

You should find a balance that works for your cashflow level, risk type and age. The Time-Value of Money really helps compound interest the earlier you start. This article is a great ground level introduction to what we our options are today for our retirement.

[copla]

Honestly, if you're reading MSN Money and Rich Dad Poor Dad for investment advice you should read a lot more before doing anything. Not sure what you've hit up so far, but I'd recommend The All Season Investor by Martin Pring and Trading In the Zone by Mark Douglas. All Season Investor because it's just a great, straight-forward book that boils down the business cycle and the ways to utilize it for maximum revenue/equity buildup/what-have-you in easy to read language. Trading in the Zone becuase no matter what kind of investment you partake in, there's a huge degree of psychology involved in it if you are moving your money in and out of the different types of equity.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by copla

Honestly, if you're reading MSN Money and Rich Dad Poor Dad for investment advice you should read a lot more before doing anything.

I would read A LOT more before you start selecting your own equity investments. DO NOT try to pick your own stocks based on advice from MSN Money.

But I would start doing SOMETHING today. Any idiot can invest in an index fund. And 2, 5, 10, or 20 years later, when you feel that you know enough to begin selecting particular investments, by all means feel free. But don't wait 2, 5, 10 or 20 years to start investing at all. Start now. You can always move the money elsewhere if you decide it's not what you want.

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by ahimel

I would read A LOT more before you start selecting your own equity investments. DO NOT try to pick your own stocks based on advice from MSN Money.

But I would start doing SOMETHING today. Any idiot can invest in an index fund. And 2, 5, 10, or 20 years later, when you feel that you know enough to begin selecting particular investments, by all means feel free. But don't wait 2, 5, 10 or 20 years to start investing at all. Start now. You can always move the money elsewhere if you decide it's not what you want.

That's kind of what I figured. Rich Dad wasn't valuable to me because of its investing advice (I mean, he's basically just a real estate mogul, right?), it was valuable because of its psychological approach. When I said "financial IQ of an eggplant," I meant it. My fundamental relationship with money needs to change. I don't really expect myself to go from "what's an 'asset'?" to daytrading in a week!

I don't know the first thing about stocks, but I figure that there's got to be a better way to get my money working for me right now than opening a savings account at Wells Fargo! I've been taking notes on all the books various people throughout the forum have been advising. Copla, thanks for your tips -- some of the books in other threads sound a bit advanced for me.

I was advised a while ago to open a money market savings account, but most require $2,500-$3,000 dollars opening balance, which, sadly, isn't in my near future. That's why the MSN article caught my eye.

[copla]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

That's kind of what I figured. Rich Dad wasn't valuable to me because of its investing advice (I mean, he's basically just a real estate mogul, right?), it was valuable because of its psychological approach. When I said "financial IQ of an eggplant," I meant it. My fundamental relationship with money needs to change. I don't really expect myself to go from "what's an 'asset'?" to daytrading in a week!

I don't know the first thing about stocks, but I figure that there's got to be a better way to get my money working for me right now than opening a savings account at Wells Fargo! I've been taking notes on all the books various people throughout the forum have been advising. Copla, thanks for your tips -- some of the books in other threads sound a bit advanced for me.

I was advised a while ago to open a money market savings account, but most require $2,500-$3,000 dollars opening balance, which, sadly, isn't in my near future. That's why the MSN article caught my eye.

Those are great distinctions all around, and it's fantastic that you've come to the realization that you need a personal financial education. Most people never do, and that's why most people never achieve the things they want to in life. About the books looking advanced, I think you'll find that after reading a couple of basic primers you'll be able to read them as long as you're smart and able to read between the lines and draw from the context. Most of these books have footnotes or definitions of their more esoteric terms in the back, or at least the good ones do. Just define your purpose in learning about your finances (do you want to become a professional trader? invest on the side?), and seek out any and all books on that topic. Some of them will be garbage, some of them won't, but that's the beauty of the library, free knowledge! Can't beat that.

About Rich Dad Poor Dad, though, just read this:

John T. Reed's analysis of Robert T. Kiyosaki's book Rich Dad, Poor Dad

Basically, he has no background in real estate to speak of, it's his wife who does their real estate investment and only then she did it on advice of a coworker.


The big thing there, though, is this beauty:

The most common favorable comment I get about Kiyosaki from those who generally agree with my analysis is that “He got me to think about my finances.” That’s pretty lame.

The IRS makes you think about your finances every April 15th. You have to think about your finances whenever you fill out a loan or credit-card application. I also think about my finances frequently when I pay bills or receive income. People who are unhappy with their financial lives—which is probably the typical Kiyosaki fan—probably think about their finances every time they get into their shabby car or return to their unsatisfactory home (e.g., living with parents, bad neighborhood, too small, etc.).

I think these “made me think about finances” comments are inarticulate at best and dishonest at worst. What is really going on is a lot of people are schlepping along doing a half-ass job of managing the financial aspects of their lives. Rich Dad Poor Dad slaps them up side the head and tells them to clean up their acts. That’s good, but the book goes on to deliver a pack of lies that make getting rich seem much easier than it really is and make education sound much less valuable than it really is. Basically, people want to get rich quick without effort or risk. Kiyosaki is just the latest in a long line of con men who pander to that fantasy.

Can the ordinary person get rich? Yes
Is it as easy as Kiyosaki makes it sound? Not even close.
Can it be done as fast as Kiyosaki says? Nope.

The author of that piece citing A Random Walk Down Wall Street is dubious at best, and shows that he hasn't looked into the markets in any depth, but in general it does a pretty good job of showing the overwhelming evidence that Kiyosaki is a fraud. There's too many great books out there by real successes to waste time with garbage like that.

[elainevdw]

Hm, a day or two after reading Rich Dad, I've started getting comments from all sorts of people about its worth (or lack thereof)! Oh well, guess it's a hallmark of me being a newb. The interesting thing is that Reed says it makes education sound less valuable than it really is, when the entire book is an argument on reforming what schools teach about finance. To be honest, it mostly reinforced in my mind information from articles like Steve's treatsie on why having a job is stupid, and why you should create multiple streams of passive income for security.

On the topic of books, what's with A Random Walk, anyway? People recommend it and shoot it down all in one breath. I was surprised to hear that it actually has a counter-book: A Non-Random Walk...

[copla]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Hm, a day or two after reading Rich Dad, I've started getting comments from all sorts of people about its worth (or lack thereof)! Oh well, guess it's a hallmark of me being a newb. The interesting thing is that Reed says it makes education sound less valuable than it really is, when the entire book is an argument on reforming what schools teach about finance. To be honest, it mostly reinforced in my mind information from articles like Steve's treatsie on why having a job is stupid, and why you should create multiple streams of passive income for security.

On the topic of books, what's with A Random Walk, anyway? People recommend it and shoot it down all in one breath. I was surprised to hear that it actually has a counter-book: A Non-Random Walk...

The Random Walk Theory says that all Wall Street price action is random so there is no way to to CONSISTENTLY be profitable trading stocks, which means that all the people who have made seven figure incomes trading securities just got lucky day in and day out. Knowing traders who make seven figure incomes, who CONSISTENTLY make 10-20 *thousand* dollars a day, and have a 95% win rate over a sample of hundreds and hundreds of trades, I don't see how anyone could believe it.

Then you get into watching the markets, and it's obvious that they move in *predictable* waves which follow along certain retracements. You'll see an impulse wave, pullback to about .382 of that move, bigger third wave, another retracement, to either .382 or .618, and weaker 5th wave move as people try to push the market after it's already exhausted. Then it goes into a larger 3-5 wave retracement of the entirety of that first 5 wave setup (A), and the retracement of A (B) will then often lead into a third wave in the direction of A, or B will turn into a full 5 wave move of its own. That was a really crude explanation, but Elliot Wave Theory is incredible when you get into it, in one book about it Elliot Wave Principle, written in around ~82, they successfully predicted the `87 crash, and in each reprint from 82 to 87 they added more evidence based on Elliot Wave Theory. Honestly, anyone who believes in Random Walk just hasn't done their homework.

[Dating Specialist]

I've the same problem as Elaine, or somewhat similar.

I just don't have the interest and concentration to read indepth into investments abd financial stuff, yet knowing how important that is to plan.

Throw me a book or anything related to dating and love I'd devour it with fervour. But financials & investments? Duh..

Does anyone have ant good suggestions to help me get motivated to learn about this subject matter and execute them?

I'm not sure if I shd create a new thread or post it as reply. The moderators can decide if there's a need to shift this post ya? thanks!

Any help is appreciated!

[copla]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

I've the same problem as Elaine, or somewhat similar.

I just don't have the interest and concentration to read indepth into investments abd financial stuff, yet knowing how important that is to plan.

Throw me a book or anything related to dating and love I'd devour it with fervour. But financials & investments? Duh..

Does anyone have ant good suggestions to help me get motivated to learn about this subject matter and execute them?

I'm not sure if I shd create a new thread or post it as reply. The moderators can decide if there's a need to shift this post ya? thanks!

Any help is appreciated!

The Richest Man in Babylon by George Clasen, it's incredibly easy to read, it's very straightforward, it's engaging, well-written, and is one of my top three favorite books of all time. It's basically a series of parables about wealth and finances, but it really, honestly is a great read, there are amazing quotes on every page, once you pick it up you won't want to put it down. Plus it's pretty short, you can probably finish it in one sitting. So yeah, Richest Man in Babylon! That and Think! And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. And Market Wizards and New Market Wizards, though that just might be because I'm completely addicted to reading books about successful people. They're really just two books chock full of in-depth interviews with multimillionaire (and billionaire!) traders about their professional and personal lives, their life philosophies, it's pretty much personal development porn.

[fourthdan]

@Dating specialist - "Richest man in Babylon" is more apt for you. I don't think "Think and grow rich" offers you little value in financial planning (though it does offer other things of value) I would recomend Rich Dad Poor Dad - but just as reference or an introduction to financial planning. Take from it what you feel you like. Funnily MSN money (the article which this thread was originally about) is a great place for people who go "duh" at hi-fi financial books, to learn.

And I think before we went into discussing Kiyosaki, someone mentioned that locking in your money till you're 65 is a bad thing. I don't know - most people I know have trouble with access to thier savings. They can't sit still without spending money they have. If you can ignore the little pinch it creates with the monthly (or yearly - then it's a big pinch) withdrawls - and not think about it - it creates a great nest egg. I'm a miser by nature, so it works great for me

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

Throw me a book or anything related to dating and love I'd devour it with fervour. But financials & investments? Duh..

I'm in the same boat with anything about people. Who cares what some dead dude did 100 years ago? Why should it matter to me at all what the 20-30-year-old dating scene looks like? But give me a book on business and I'm happy for hours. So let's swap.

Does anyone have ant good suggestions to help me get motivated to learn about this subject matter and execute them?

What's true is, you don't HAVE to be an expert to have a good, secure financial situation. I'm sure there are TONS of nuances you could discuss about relationships that I couldn't even comprehend, and yet I still managed to get married. Similarly, you don't need to understand all the technical stuff I have in my head in order to have good finances. You just have to know the basics. And thanks to technology, the basics can usually be implemented in a totally brainless way.

Basic 1: Spend less than you make Trust me; you'll never get rich by spending more money than you have. If you're a typical employee with a fixed paycheck that comes every month, this is easy. Figure out how much you get, and figure out how to spend less than that. The 60% solutions is a brilliantly easy way to spend less than you earn without having to spend days building a budget and track to the penny where all your money goes.

If you're self-employed, get paid on commission, or otherwise have a variable paycheck, it's harder, but figure out your averages and build a cash reserve.

PM me if you want the spreadsheet I use for this.

Basic 2: Pay yourself first This is in large part related to #1; if you put money where you don't see it on a daily basis and can't get to it easily, you don't spend it. Set up your bank to automatically transfer money to savings every month; ask your investment companies to put you on auto-deposit (they're always happy to take your money.) For reasons unknown to humankind and utterly inexplicable to math majors, if you spend money and save what's left, you never have any left to save. But if you save money and then spend what's left, you have no difficulty meeting your financial needs with the smaller amount of money. WTF? I don't know. But it works. Richest Man In Babylon is a great resource for this.

Basic 3: Use that money to do useful things This is where we start to differ between people who like this stuff and people who don't. I use my savings to invest in real estate, and as seed capital to start my own business. My step-grandfather-in-law uses it to buy and sell stocks. We both get a kick out of what we do, and consider it valuable use of our time. It works for us.

But there's no reason you have to do this. This plan works just as well:

• Put your short-term savings in a savings account at the bank or a CD.
• Put your long-term savings in a money market account (we keep ours in Paypal, which pays us ~4%, keeps us from spending it because it's not in the bank account, but allows us to get it in 3-4 days if necessary.)
• Put your retirment savings in an index fund.
• Set up all of these on auto-pay so that you don't have to do anything to keep them up-to-date.
• File your monthly statements in a drawer.
• Ignore them until you're 55 or so.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Hm, a day or two after reading Rich Dad, I've started getting comments from all sorts of people about its worth (or lack thereof)! Oh well, guess it's a hallmark of me being a newb. The interesting thing is that Reed says it makes education sound less valuable than it really is, when the entire book is an argument on reforming what schools teach about finance. To be honest, it mostly reinforced in my mind information from articles like Steve's treatsie on why having a job is stupid, and why you should create multiple streams of passive income for security.

I've found people get quite passionate about Kiyosaki. I guess being successful means he's a bigger subject of controversy; you have to either love him or hate him.

I find that people who are already pretty financially savvy dislike him. He is an extremely poor writer, and tends to summarize things they already know in a hard-to-understand way.

On the other hand, for people with the financial IQ of an eggplant he brings up a lot of points that those people often had no idea of. When I first entered the world of finance, I had no idea that you could pay yourself first, and still live just as good a lifestlye. I had no idea that there was a better model than trading your time for money. I had no idea that there were places you could go where people would basically say to you, "give me $10,000 and I'll give you $100/month for the rest of your life." As a math major, I could tell you instantly that it was a good deal, but I had no idea you could actually do that. But such things exist! And they don't require any special dispensation or brown-nosing or anything! You just buy them! Yes, all he does is repeat a lot of centuries-old financial advice. But this advice is centuries-old because it's useful, and if you didn't know it, learning it is worthwhile.

[elainevdw]

I was thinking about it on the way home, and the entire book might as well be a lenghy parable. It actually reads that way -- iconic characters, moral lessons, the sort of plot you can tie up with a big red bow. (And, according to that Web site, about 2% of the entire thing is factual!) It's actually kind of impressive.

Kloudiia, I have no idea why I suddenly decided to be interested in finances. I go in spurts. Three years ago it was fitness and nutrition. Two years ago it was henna (I went from knowing nothing to a professional artist in about a year). Last year it was intuition and energy practices (auras and stuff). This year and next looks like it's finances and investing. I've known that I should do something about my outlook on money for years -- I've been dating my business-major BF for five years now, and his dad is one of those guys that went from sleeping in his car during his college years to owning a million-dollar home in Tahoe in his forties and fifties. (The story of his business career is fascinating.) You'd think I would have gotten the hint earlier.

I still find the subject of money to be a bit dense, but my approach towards it has suddenly switched. When I come across something I don't understand, instead of immediately losing interest, I now think to myself, "Oh well, I'll understand that soon enough" and I skim through the rest of the article.

If anybody has tips on how to force this kind of switch, I'd love to hear it. I'm sure there's other things in my life I need to work on, too.