Optimal degree choice

[Wanderer]

Im a 17 year old looking for the best possible start in life, as the majority of people on this site seem very happy and well off I wanted to know the general opinion on:

1) Are degrees worth it (chances are I will come out £25,000 or so in debt)
2) Which degree would be the best option (am currently tending towards maths/finance)
3) Is it a worthwhile time commitment or would I be better off trying to do something else

Contrary to most people on this site am unsure of my purpose and would just like to know what would help me in trying to get the best start in life. I am unsure as of yet about a future career

Many Thanks

[RandomJohn]

Gee ... that's a broad question which is very daunting.

I definitely found college to be worth it. I got a degree in math and education, and, currently being in a scientific field I found putting the extra effort in to the math classes to be worth it. (Especially linear algebra, which appears everywhere.)

One thing to keep in mind is that college isn't just about a degree. It's about learning and experience. In 10 years, what your major is will not really matter. It might matter if you get a specialized job right away, or if you go to graduate school right away. It's the experience you pick up and can rely on that matters the most.

If I were standing at that decision with my current knowledge and experience (I'm 5 years out of a PhD in Statistics), I would definitely go to college, focus on classes with wide applicability as well as stretching my limits and introducing me to new ways of thinking. (Which is pretty much what I did. My only regret is not taking a little more biology and chemistry.)

HOWEVER, you are not required to go to college. You can go to trade schools (not sure how the UK system works) or build your experience other ways. In that case, you'd probably want to get some business training because the best way to make money is through entrepreneurship. There are people who never made it through college who are quite wealthy. It can be done, and it takes dedication.

[RandomJohn]

Oh yeah, try to game the system so that you can get out early. Steve got out in 3 semesters. I got out in 6, and it would have been 5 had I not had to do an internship precluding all other classes as part of the degree requirements. Definitely worth the extra effort.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Im a 17 year old looking for the best possible start in life, as the majoprity of people on this site seem very happy and well off I wanted to know the general opinion on:

1) Are degrees worth it (chances are I will coem out £25,000 or so in debt)
2) Which degree would be the best option (am currently tending towards maths/finance)
3) Is it a worthwhile time commitment or would I be better off trying to do something else

Contrary to most people on this site am unsure of my purpose and would just like to know what would help me in trying to get the best start in life. I am unsure as of yet about a future career

Many Thanks

Hi Wanderer

Listen mate, dont get sucked into all the negativity behind student debt and stuff. You know as well as we all do that if a student wants to earn money whilst doing his degree he can do. Its a no-brainer.

If you really want that good atart in life then dont be the typical student...in fact be the atypical student.

Dont do the minimum and cram at the end and expect great results. Dont expect people to be falling at your feet once you graduate, offering you fantastic positions. Dont expect anything except that which you can promise yourself.

The bottom line is this. No matter what degree you take, if you do nothing with the knowledge then you can work in a call centre with the other ex-grads who took a hard landing when they came down to post graduation life. There is a big bad world out there. But the beauty of it is, that you can control your own destiny if you desire it.

My number one suggestion for you at this moment in time is to consider what you feel passionate about, then choose a degree that in some way can assist that passion. Also check out Steve Pavlina's blog in particular about how he graduated in quick time. I dont necessarily think that you need to do this (ie graduate quicker than expected) but what you can do is use the skills of GTD and PMA to make sure you dont act like a typical bum who grudgingly attends the minimum of classes and crams just to get that class 3 degree.

In a way you are a lucky guy to have came across this stuff at 17.

I didnt know positive people existed in this shape until I first read TOM HOPKINS 'Selling for Dummies' when I was in my late 20's.

Good luck in whatever you do, but remeber if you do decide to go to Uni, dont become one of the sheep and dont give into peer pressure to party, piss it up and ill perform.

[mhdoc]

Keep in mind the ideal occupation for you probably hasn't been invented yet Advice about what is the best thing to do is always based on past experience and may no longer be true and/or apply to you in your situation. I don't think you will ever regret eduction no matter what the subject material.

I would be REAL concerned about that huge debt you projected. Coming out of school with that kind of debt load will severely limit your options. If you have to start making payments immediately you no longer have the freedom to try less immediately profitable ventures.

[RandomJohn]

Again, I'm thinking in the U.S. but student loans are considered "good debt." Most of the time they will let you start off with small payments but then get larger over time, or something like that. I wouldn't be as concerned about this kind of debt load as with, say, a car.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by RandomJohn

Again, I'm thinking in the U.S. but student loans are considered "good debt." Most of the time they will let you start off with small payments but then get larger over time, or something like that. I wouldn't be as concerned about this kind of debt load as with, say, a car.

RJ

The UK is the same. They only want it back after you have passed a salary threshold and even then its in small amounts.

Its a non-debt to be honest.

The debt is to yourself.

I left school at 15 and from my 16th birthday have worked every day and built a career in Financials with zero formal education. Last year I graduated with honours in Belfast after paying the full cost for a degree in Philosophy for no other reason than to say I could do it. At the sane time I am running my business, supporting my wife and 5 kids and enjoying life.

I despair when I see people moaning about something like debt that will in fact turn out to be an investment.

Its like buying a book: say a sales book by Tom Hopkins. That measly €20 book could net you an extra €2000 per month even if you only incorporated 5% of his ideas.

[mhdoc]

Originally Posted by RandomJohn

Again, I'm thinking in the U.S. but student loans are considered "good debt." Most of the time they will let you start off with small payments but then get larger over time, or something like that. I wouldn't be as concerned about this kind of debt load as with, say, a car.

"Good Debt" "or something like that" I would suggest you read the fine print on student loan documents and then imagine starting to make the payments shortly after getting out of school, starting a job, buying a house/car etc. If the money was spent prudently for an education which generates a high income that would be one thing. If lots of it went to have a good time and provides no exceptional job skills, good luck. In the USA you can't even bankrupt out of student loan debt.

[Wanderer]

Thanks for all the replies everyone

The debt repayments for the UK are as follows you dont start paying until
a) the april after you finish university (giving you 6 months to get a job etc.)
b) you are earning £15,000 pa minimum

c) If I was earning £20,000 pa after university I would be paying back £8.65 per week, thats £450 per year approximately 1/40 of my earnings
d) The loans are linked to inflation but have no profit added (I will be paying back the same amount in real terms
e) If after 25 years I still have a loan it gets written off by the government

Again thanks for all the replies everyone any other thoughts on the subject?

[mattinglot]

I went for a Business & Comp Sci degree which I'm still working on completing. My experience has been that there are at least as many bad courses as good courses, and that the lecture/test style does not suit my learning style. Granted I've got very high GPAs in both biz & comp sci, but I find that getting such grades is far more about memorization than any deep understanding. I only go to about 4-8 hours of class a week anymore since reading the textbook and lecture notes before a test is much more efficient. So that's the bad side of university, all too often it's $500 per course to have a prof force you to learn a textbook.

That being said it's been an extremely rewarding experience anyway. I've learned a fair bit in the good courses, some of it extremely interesting, but the highest value I've obtained has been outside of class from the people I've met and the resources that the university provides. I've been able to attend all sorts of entrepreneurial events, make amazing connections, participate in very worthy causes, and of course have a lot of fun.

Having taken time off before attending university I can definitely say that jumping into the "real world" and not going to university would have been a huge loss.

Oh and I agree with Stephen about the whole not sweating the student debt thing. University really doesn't have to be a fulltime job if you manage your time well (check out Steve's posts of course). Just find work that is flexible enough to accomodate your student lifestyle. Furthermore consider a university that has co-op programs where some of your terms are spent in jobs related to your degree (often these jobs pay much better than minimum wage too - here it's about 500-600CAD/week on your first term, more if you are doing accounting or finance). If you have this opportunity I can't think of too many reasons not to take it. Combine that with a part-time job during academic terms and you won't have student debt at all.

[Doku]

1) Degrees are worth it if your chosen career field requires it, or you don't already have strong contacts in the field that can get you your first job.
2) Math/Finance? Actuarial Science. (an Actuary) Actuaries are very math and finance intensive, and generally very high pay.
3) Degree is an absolute requirement for most actuary positions.

1a) You are 17. You are likely in your senior year... Apply for scholarships. LOTS of them. Look for the undesirables.. the ones that are only 250 bucks or so. MANY of them go completely unclaimed. If you apply, you get it because there was ZERO competition for it. You still have plenty of time to get scholarships.

3a) Another way to cut time/cost is CLEP tests. You are in the UK, so I'm not sure if they exist there.

--Doku

[ahimel]

I'm in the US, and I don't know what UK culture looks like, so if anything I say to you seems bloody stupid, feel free to ignore it.

I think it depends in part on what you want to do. If your goal is to become a highly-paid employee, then I'd say you should get a degree, because it makes a BIG difference (sometimes makes possible) getting into the higher-paid fields.

For example, I recently went to a party with my roommate, hanging out with graduates from the Colorado School of Mines. These people had been out of college for 2-3 years, and were making not less than US$75k/yr! A diploma from Mines will do that for you.

At the other extreme, if you intend to create a startup company and sell it for millions of dollars, I wouldn't bother with the degree. It doesn't matter to the people who will help with startups, will put you in a lot of debt, doesn't give you that much valuable experience, and delays your startup.

Most likely you're somewhere in the middle, but hopefully the extreme cases will give you ideas for figuring out where you fall.

If you don't know what you want to do, I'd go to school. It gives you an official status, gives you the possibility of getting a good degree if you decide to go that route, gives more life experiences, helps you develop life skills, and mostly gives you time to figure out what you want to do.

I definitely wouldn't go to college if your intention is to drink beer and party. You can instead move to a college town, get a job, and drink beer/party without the enormous debt load. But I'm guessing that since you're on these forums at age 17, that wasn't in your plan.

[Abhey]

The true cost of a degree is going to be 25K plus lost income over the 3 years spent doing it so assuming average salary of 17k then your true cost is easily going to exceed 75K.
Having said that the cost of a degree is still a bargain if you go to a good university, interact with brilliant people and get a job you love after doing it.
I don't know how much extra it might add to your income by doing a degree but you can safely assume it'll eventually pay for itself after having done it.

Rather then thinking about the financials, think about what you want to do with your life, who you want to be and what you want to learn (don't expect to have answers to those questions yet).

[Abhey]

Don't worry if you make the wrong choice, I think we all know somebody who completely f***ed up their life when they went to college for the first time but still managed to get their s**t together eventually (Hi Steve).

[Eggzachery]

Originally Posted by Abhey

The true cost of a degree is going to be 25K plus lost income over the 3 years spent doing it so assuming average salary of 17k then your true cost is easily going to exceed 75K.
Having said that the cost of a degree is still a bargain if you go to a good university, interact with brilliant people and get a job you love after doing it.
I don't know how much extra it might add to your income by doing a degree but you can safely assume it'll eventually pay for itself after having done it.

Rather then thinking about the financials, think about what you want to do with your life, who you want to be and what you want to learn (don't expect to have answers to those questions yet).

You are making a huge assumption on lost income. There's absolutely no reason why this individual couldn't make 17k or twice that or more WHILE going to school full time. How? There's been more than one person posting on this forum alone that has answered that question.

[Wanderer]

Thanks for all the replys

I have decided I am going to go to university, the course I hope to get onto is for studying maths, but I get alot of free choices so I will have more freedom in my course, I will get £1000 bursary if I get ABB (possible), and I also get to spend the second year at an American university which should improve my life skills/world knowledge considerably.

Also while at university I hope to:
Work for the university to make some money
Either study extra maths modules to finish earlier or study other modules in other subjects to increase my knowledge
Run my own website
Run my own terrain business
Continue not drinking which should save lots of money
Turn vegan/vegitarian again saving money
Train very hard in Martial Arts (can anyone say jujitsu 5 days a week)

Hopefully I should be able to graduate with as little debt as possible and a good start to life.

Many Thanks to everyone that gave advice

[Doku]

Quick suggestion.

You said that you are going to get a math degree, and that you want to run your own website... At most universities, math and computer science are so closely related that with a math degree, you need to take 2-4 more classes to get a comp-sci degree, and vice-versa.

You might want to consider a dual degree.

[Wanderer]

Cheers Doku that sounds good I will look into a dual degree with computer science

[Erki]

Just make sure you really have a genuine interest to Math. In high school, I was awesome in Math, my exam result was 96/100(quite good considering the average was ~50..) and that was without working hard at all, most of my math classes I just joked with mates... Now I'm in uni and I don't really think there's gonna be a second year for me here. I'm actually studying computers but as Doku said, those two are very much the same - most of what I have is Math, Math...Math and a little of Physics, I only get to touch a computer once a week. It's pretty hard to study Math when you know that you don't have the slightest interest in it and your heart is somewhere else.

PS: Don't ask my why I chose computers... I feel like I'm wasting some talents here...

[kmr321]

If your doing a business degree of some sort
i would recommend accounting and finance. They both complement each other and are very useful in the real world and if you want to pursue your own investments you ll have a big headstart.

[thef0x]

I'm a philosophy major at a small private liberal arts college.

What can a philosophy major do as a philosopher? Teach college (an option, I am a Ph.D. when I'm 32--intention-manifestation).

But what do I get out of my major? And a small liberal arts college education?

The ability to communicate through my spoken words and writing clearly and effectively whatever I choose to speak of.

What does philosophy do for me? It teaches me about the width of perspective. It teaches me how to ask questions, and the right questions.

How much will I make as a philosopher? Probably nothing.

OH WELL. I LOVE IT

What else could I ask for? I'm totally in love with academics, learning and philosophy/writing philosophy.

I plan on writing for publication throughout my life (currently a writing tutor at my college).

I plan on becoming a fantastic film director.

I plan on making over one million dollars before I'm 30 years of age.



Do what you love in college, learn how to make money with the myriad of time we have in life, enjoy many men and women in all the relationships you have, and live life for your personal happiness.


Seek your own excellence, and step in all the puddles of life, to taste all the favors you can.


What does philosophy get me? Happiness and personal meaning.

[Greg]

Enroll in what you think you'll be interested in. If it doesn't work, don't be afraid to switch horses in midstream. I've known a lot of people who have switched their major after taking one or two years at University and none of them regret their decision. It's worth taking an extra year to find what you want to do, then get a degree that you don't want.

Also, take more courses than you have to every semester - you don't necessarily have to do it in 3 semesters but challenge yourself with additional courses and you'll be miles ahead.

[geekchic9]

Originally Posted by mattinglot

the highest value I've obtained has been outside of class from the people I've met and the resources that the university provides. I've been able to attend all sorts of entrepreneurial events, make amazing connections, participate in very worthy causes, and of course have a lot of fun.

Wise words. 'Nuff said.

[Wanderer]

All this information seems really useful, Thanks very much everyone