Can university be a good thing?

[Muzzinho]

Hiya, my name is muzzinho and i have just joined this forum and i'm at a stage in my life where i have to decide if education is worthy for my future. Upon visiting stevepavlina i have realised that there is a lot more to life than i had expected such as finance, income, and many other aspects but i would like some help... should i go to university.. i am planning to study a course called "internet engineering"...i enjoy programming and i want to make a living from it, just like stevepavlina, do i need a degree and to what extent does it help me?

Thanks guys for any advice , much appreciated

[Baltar]

University doesn't teach you programming, but a good technical or engineering university does teach you other things that are helpful to being a software engineer. If you want a career as a software engineer, it's a good idea to get a Computer Science degree. Employers will also generally require one. Of course as with anything, you get out of it what you put into it. When I was in university (I prefer to use the American word "college" but as I understand, outside the US it usually doesn't refer to four year schools), I didn't learn as much as I could have. So if you do decide to get a degree, do it with the intention of getting more out of it than a piece of paper that says you have a degree.

[Shamou]

Hello and welcome aboard Muzzinho...

I agree with Baltar... you will get out of a University what you put into it... a student can come out of a University as dumb as he was when he got into it... or with a sharp and well honed mind...

The University is like a gym for the mind... it can help you to strengthen and develop your mind... teach you how to think critically... how to use logic... how to solve problems... how to use your imagination... in one word... how to prepare and equip you for life...

If you have the chance to get a good education... don't miss it... you'll never regret it...

The very best of luck to you...
.

[Addict]

do i need a degree and to what extent does it help me?

Do you need a degree? No, of course not. You don't need any sort of formal education.

Does it help? Absolutely!

University doesn't teach you programming

It doesn't?

[Mark Lapierre]

Adding to what Baltar and Shamou have said, I'd suggest thinking about how much effort you intend to put into your studies, and what kinds of things you want to learn.

I did a Computer Science degree and found it next to useless. I wanted to learn programming (which I did, and then never used), but wasn't interested in the theory behind it (I still did well but was bored to death). However a friend of mine did a Software Engineering course which involved a lot more software development, including a 1 year placement with a software development company. He loved it.

I ended up getting a tech. support job during uni and it wasn't until 4 years with that company had passed that I started doing software development for them. But the development was in different languages, using completely different approaches. So in the end I didn't even need the degree to get a software development job.

Skipping forward a few years I've taught myself much more about software development than I learned in uni, but in doing so I learnt just how important the theory is for effective, efficient software development. I know now that if I'd put more effort in during my uni years the learning that I did over the last few years would have been a hell of a lot easier, and quicker, because I'd have had a much more solid foundation to build upon.

So no, you don't need a degree, but the degree is not the important part, it's the effort you put in and the rewards you reap (or don't).

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Adding to what Baltar and Shamou have said, I'd suggest thinking about how much effort you intend to put into your studies, and what kinds of things you want to learn.

One thing that has not been mentioned is the influence that your peer at the University will have on you...

I was fortunate to meet some cracker jack minds that left a profound influence on me... just talking and rubbing elbow with these guys and gals was an education in itself...
.

[andythai]

I personally would recommend a Unverisity Education. At minimum it will open you up to more opportunities, network with students and expand your knowledge. Of course, what you get out of it is what you put in.

A college degree say in computer science, can prepare you for a job in the computer field. This is what I did and landed a job at ibm as software engineer.

[Xander756]

Building on what another person said, just the people you meet at a university is well worth the time spent there. Even if they aren't "cracker jack" minds, a typical university has a diverse group of peoples with a variety of likes/dislikes. Being around different types of people will make you sociologically smart, something that benefits me extra because my dream job is being a cop in which I will have to learn how to deal with different kinds of people.

[Erki]

Everything, university included, can be a good thing if you let/make it be.

[Addict]

^I like that thinking.

[maken]

university is a good place for discovering your strengths, becoming more organised and ofcourse the certificate will help you get a job. but its not always the solution for everyone. There are other things you should consider, like a student loan, leaving your current lifestyle etc..

[Eric Dick]

Go For It, I was in the same situation 3 years ago and took the plunge. I had half complete already.

Cheers,

[Tasaio]

I took a Major in Computer Science, so I feel qualified to disagree.

Some of the people here are dead wrong. You're unlikely to meet cracker-jack minds at university these days. Most of the students will be spoiled, rich brats. As a result, uni is more like high school than ever.

On the other hand, the expectations (on tests) have only become higher. So you'll be facing a harder time than, say, your parents and older siblings.

If you aren't rich, then what's the point of spending all that money? It doesn't help that degrees in Computer Science have had their fees...deregulated.

What this means, is that institutions can charge as mush as they want. So you'll be paying a lot more (think 10 grand!!!) than most other students.

For many students--especially in computers--a degree can be a mistake. This is because they fail to realize that the difference between theory and reality, is bigger in reality than it is in theory.

Here's one thing to remember: Programming is not computer science. You can teach yourself programming--for free--with a little hard work and a lot of discipline. Look up some online tutorials.

Computer science, though, is all about math. So be careful you don't bog yourself down in theory, if all you want to do is programming.

Also, you should consider auditing. Sit in on your prospective classes, and if you don't like it, then you'll have saved yourself a lot of time and money.

If, though, you like what you see, then I still recommend taking a year off to expand your horizons.

Is having a degree worth the time and effort?

Good luck!

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Muzzinho

Hiya, my name is muzzinho and i have just joined this forum and i'm at a stage in my life where i have to decide if education is worthy for my future.

I went to school at twenty seven and then again at forty for advanced studies. It was worth it for me. My timing may have been a little different from many of those attending with me who were largely going to college immediately after high school.

Looking back I have no regrets about the timing of my education or my education in general.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Here's one thing to remember: Programming is not computer science. You can teach yourself programming--for free--with a little hard work and a lot of discipline. Look up some online tutorials.

Computer science, though, is all about math. So be careful you don't bog yourself down in theory, if all you want to do is programming.

Agreed. I would have chosen to not do my computer science degree if I'd understood this before I started.

Though if I'd really understood my options I would have studied software development. Just as programming is not computer science, so programming is not software development. A lot more goes into software development than just writing code. Planning, design, architecture, testing, and in a professional environment, dealing with clients, dealing with managers, dealing with colleagues, etc., etc. However, for a great book on all the most important parts of software development, with a focus on general best practices for writing code, check out Code Complete.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

For many students--especially in computers--a degree can be a mistake. This is because they fail to realize that the difference between theory and reality, is bigger in reality than it is in theory.

Here's one thing to remember: Programming is not computer science. You can teach yourself programming--for free--with a little hard work and a lot of discipline. Look up some online tutorials.

Computer science, though, is all about math. So be careful you don't bog yourself down in theory, if all you want to do is programming.

Whoa there, a degree is certainly not mistake in the computer field. While I agree completely that programming != what you'll be taught in computer science classes, knowing the theory is very helpful in becoming a software engineer. Software engineering is a much more complex field than just programming. In fact, the programming part (writing the code) is actually the easiest portion of software development.

I also have to disagree that Computer Science is all about math. There's very little math that's directly relevant to Computer Science. Discrete Math and Linear Algebra come to mind, but Calculus has no direct relation. You also don't need to be great at math to be a great programmer and software engineer, despite the popular belief that the two go together (I have a minor in Applied Math so I've seen a lot of it, and haven't used most of it after university).

However, I have to agree that programming is something that you could, and probably should learn on your own. I'm completely self taught in programming (I started dabbling in it when I was 12 years old). My Computer Science curriculum had two introductory programming classes during the first year, and by that time I already knew most of what they were teaching anyway. They rightfully expected us to learn it on our own, because university is not a trade school. Despite this, and despite arrogantly thinking back then that all of this is a waste of time, I found the things I learned in computer science classes to be useful. Understanding how a compiler works, or how an OS works, or how TCP/IP works, etc. is good to know.

What I can say overall though is that a degree is not mandatory. Whether or not you should get one depends a lot on what your goals are (of course this early in life it may be difficult to determine that). And as Gene said you can get it later in life if you want to. When I was in university I took classes with a 30 yearold, and my senior project class had someone who appeared to be in his 40's.

[Tasaio]

Baltar, your post flies in the face of things you've previously written:

University Degrees - necessary in making a valuable contribution?

Is having a degree worth the time and effort?

University Degrees - necessary in making a valuable contribution?

It also disagrees with several programmers I know. Some of them work at Google, and even then they contend that a degree isn't neccessary.

They also point out that they rarely use the theory they were taught. And these aren't young men, but grown adults with three kids.

The point is moot, though...

Instead of learning it an uni, teach yourself those things! There are textbooks readily available.

I don't know about you, but I learn by reading, not listening. And for me, lectures were merely a copy and paste of what was readily available in textbooks.

I suppose if you're one of those students who thinks textbook learning is "hard", then you're going to live a sunken life.

If you want to be independent, then you need to be able to learn without a human teacher.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Baltar, your post flies in the face of things you've previously written:

Yep, that happens. It's called personal growth. You'll find that Steve Pavlina's writings sometimes contradict themselves as well over time.

Originally Posted by Tasaio

It also disagrees with several programmers I know. Some of them work at Google, and even then they contend that a degree isn't neccessary. They also point out that they rarely use the theory they were taught.

Funny you say that, because I heard that Google likes to hire people who have a PhD. But yes, a degree is definitely not mandatory to be successful. Most of my personal heroes don't have them (including Steve Jobs and John Carmack for instance, although Steve Jobs had said that he dropped in on lectures for three semesters after dropping out). I think there were two major reasons that getting the degree was good for me. One is that it forced me to learn things that I would have otherwise not bothered to learn on my own. The other one was that it toughened me up -- the university I went to was an engineering school with a dropout/transfer rate of 60% for first year students. Getting through it made me more resilient to future challenges.

As for not using the theory, I have to agree that it's rarely used directly. Although I'd actually expect them to use a lot of it in Google for their search engine. The whole thing began as a research project by two PhD students. In my opinion being exposed to the theory helps you in problem solving, and just being aware of it (or even knowing how it's called) means you can look it up in the future if you do need it. I mean how many people would ever learn about BNF grammar on their own? Or regular expressions? Or even finite automata?

Instead of learning it an uni, teach yourself those things! There are textbooks readily available.

I don't know about you, but I learn by reading, not listening. And for me, lectures were merely a copy and paste of what was readily available in textbooks.

Some classes were just copy/paste from a textbook, others had professors who discussed things with us. The class that had the most influence on me was the Senior Project (in the last semester). I volunteered for being the Project Manager of a team of six people. We had to design and develop a software system, along with a written project plan and report (project scheduling, gantt charts, design specs, the works). The professor was a former CEO. This is not something you'll get from a book. Would've been nice if we had more such classes, but even one was great.

However, overall I do agree that it's possible to learn a lot of things on your own. This however requires discipline and commitment that most people probably don't have at that age. I know I didn't. Like most things, university has both positive and negative aspects to it. For instance one negative aspect is that the professors are usually out of touch with reality, and make students do very structured, theoretical assignments that don't reflect reality. It's not an optimal system by any means, but like democracy it's the best we have developed so far.

I used to think a degree was a waste of time in general (as my previous posts no doubt will show). But lately I've begun to appreciate the complexity of life, and that it's not as black and white as I once thought. There are people who will say that a degree is a waste, others who'll say it's mandatory in this day and age. I say it has to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Ultimately though what you get out of it is what you put into it.

If you just go there to get a degree because that's what everyone is doing and you just want that piece of paper, then you won't get out of it as much as you would if you go in there with a specific goal to learn something. I did the former, and for me it ended up being a very inefficient four years. I used to resent this, but now I'm at peace with it. If you're very driven, self-motivated, and disciplined at that age then you can certainly get far without a degree. It has been done, but it requires a level of maturity that most people seem to lack in their late teens.

Oh and for the record, I'd never go back to university now. I have no plans on ever getting any "advanced" degrees, and that's very unlikely to change in the future. This however doesn't mean that I regret going to university when I did.

[Addict]

For many students--especially in computers--a degree can be a mistake. This is because they fail to realize that the difference between theory and reality, is bigger in reality than it is in theory.

Here's one thing to remember: Programming is not computer science. You can teach yourself programming--for free--with a little hard work and a lot of discipline. Look up some online tutorials.

Computer science, though, is all about math. So be careful you don't bog yourself down in theory, if all you want to do is programming.

I don't get this. How can learning something everbe a mistake? And when did computer science become all about math? I took four CSC classes (I'm ECE). Three out of four of these classes were programming classes. Any math including was there because you had to understand it to get your program working.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by Baltar

Yep, that happens. It's called personal growth. You'll find that Steve Pavlina's writings sometimes contradict themselves as well over time.

Duh.

I respect you, Baltar, but you have a tendency to patronize people who don't share your stance. Since you sometimes flip-flop (degrees, Iraq, etc.), I'm not sure why you insist on acting the instant expert.

I think there were two major reasons that getting the degree was good for me. One is that it forced me to learn things that I would have otherwise not bothered to learn on my own. The other one was that it toughened me up -- the university I went to was an engineering school with a dropout/transfer rate of 60% for first year students. Getting through it made me more resilient to future challenges.

Fair enough. I, too, went to a very prestigious school. Some of the courses had 70% of the class fail the midterm (and drop the course). I was in the 30% that made it.

I know what you mean by university toughening you up, but you have to look to the real reason you learned the material--to do well on assignments and tests.

My point is, someone could easily access uni resources (like course websites) and force themselves to complete assignments by the due date. Indeed, that is what I have done, to great success.

The idea that 'high fees = incentive to do well' is a very flawed and damaging belief. I worked for my money, because my parents had none saved up. I used to resent this, but I now am glad that I made my own way.

Why spend so much money, only to realize you could have taught yourself for free?

However, overall I do agree that it's possible to learn a lot of things on your own. This however requires discipline and commitment that most people probably don't have at that age. I know I didn't. Like most things, university has both positive and negative aspects to it. For instance one negative aspect is that the professors are usually out of touch with reality, and make students do very structured, theoretical assignments that don't reflect reality. It's not an optimal system by any means, but like democracy it's the best we have developed so far.

Actually, many students have this discipline, but a low level of consciousness prevents them from ever tapping into it...

At my school, the best students rarely attended lectures because they were too busy learning at home.

Conversely, those who claimed to be learning from lectures often got low grades.

Also, would you still call the US a democracy? Maybe you confused 'demo' with 'theo'...they sound alike.

If you're very driven, self-motivated, and disciplined at that age then you can certainly get far without a degree. It has been done, but it requires a level of maturity that most people seem to lack in their late teens.

Oh and for the record, I'd never go back to university now. I have no plans on ever getting any "advanced" degrees, and that's very unlikely to change in the future. This however doesn't mean that I regret going to university when I did.

The problem with this statement is that it sounds like your previous ones. Why even mention advanced degrees, unless you have a secret level of guilt about not getting one?

What's preventing you from flip-flopping on this in the near future?

I don't get this. How can learning something everbe a mistake? And when did computer science become all about math? I took four CSC classes (I'm ECE). Three out of four of these classes were programming classes. Any math including was there because you had to understand it to get your program working.

(bashes head against wall)

Learning something can be a mistake...if it's in place of something you should be learning instead.

If the OP wants to learn internet engineering, then why waste four years learning foundations of computer science?

It may be applicable...but then, so too might computer engineering.

Instead of taking a basic computer science degree, he should figure out exactly what an internet engineer needs to know.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Baltar

In my opinion being exposed to the theory helps you in problem solving, and just being aware of it (or even knowing how it's called) means you can look it up in the future if you do need it.

True. It just doesn't necessarily seem that way when you're fresh out of high school

Originally Posted by Baltar

I mean how many people would ever learn about BNF grammar on their own? Or regular expressions? Or even finite automata?

I taught myself regular expressions. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Baltar

Some classes were just copy/paste from a textbook, others had professors who discussed things with us. The class that had the most influence on me was the Senior Project (in the last semester). I volunteered for being the Project Manager of a team of six people. We had to design and develop a software system, along with a written project plan and report (project scheduling, gantt charts, design specs, the works). The professor was a former CEO. This is not something you'll get from a book. Would've been nice if we had more such classes, but even one was great.

Sounds like your professor was more in touch with reality than most. I remember having to do a similar sort of project, but the focus was almost exclusively on the details of waterfall model itself, and very little on the organisation required to coordinate it (let alone a comprehensive treatment of alternatives)

Originally Posted by Baltar

I say it has to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Ultimately though what you get out of it is what you put into it.

Agreed. I don't think it's possible to say this too many times. Learning involves a great deal of potential. With any learning there is the potential to excel, but there's also the potential to completely waste your time. Which way you go is up to you.

Originally Posted by Baltar

Oh and for the record, I'd never go back to university now. I have no plans on ever getting any "advanced" degrees, and that's very unlikely to change in the future. This however doesn't mean that I regret going to university when I did.

I took the plunge and started an undergrad Psychology course. I'm really enjoying it so far

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

I respect you, Baltar, but you have a tendency to patronize people who don't share your stance. Since you sometimes flip-flop (degrees, Iraq, etc.), I'm not sure why you insist on acting the instant expert.

Hey, I know I'm not perfect. I'm doing my best. I hope you can see past my flaws, because I'm not posting here to get an ego boost. I'm genuinely trying to understand things better and help others understand as well.

Originally Posted by Tasaio

I know what you mean by university toughening you up, but you have to look to the real reason you learned the material--to do well on assignments and tests.

My point is, someone could easily access uni resources (like course websites) and force themselves to complete assignments by the due date. Indeed, that is what I have done, to great success.

Yes, I agree with that. People can go into university with the goal of learning something though. That's the thing -- you really need to go in with that goal, otherwise you're using your time very inefficiently.

Originally Posted by Tasaio

The problem with this statement is that it sounds like your previous ones. Why even mention advanced degrees, unless you have a secret level of guilt about not getting one?

What's preventing you from flip-flopping on this in the near future?

I think you're overanalyzing what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that for the person I was back then, right after high school, it made sense for me to go to university in retrospect (although I didn't think so for a long time, hence the contradictory postings). I wouldn't go now because I'm a different person now. I wouldn't get a degree right now even if I had none at all. I have the level of consciousness, maturity, and discipline where I can learn whatever I need on my own.

I think I see now what you're saying though.. You're saying that people shouldn't be raised to rely on someone else to teach them things? That it's better and more efficient to learn things on your own than go through university? From that perspective I can see how university can never be a good thing.

Thanks for making me think more about this. One thing I'm working on now is getting myself to remember that my goal in an argument should be not to prove I'm right, but to come out with a better understanding of the issue.

[Niki]

Hey,

Here in Belgium we have a "Professional Bachelor in applied informatics" with 3 different graduation speciality's. Networking, management and programming. Maybe you could find something like this? I'm doing both networking and programming. We have to learn the theory, but we use it directly in practice sessions!

Good luck finding what you need to find!