[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Nutural means, I don't know, "from the biological" point of view. Biology does not make a huge distinction between humans and other animals. Doing so would be inconvenient and would contradict Okham's Razor principle. That's scientific point of view. Humans are animals that share most of their traits with animals plus have this thing called consciousness. It does separate us from all other animals, but the last I checked we still belonged to the animal kingdom, mammals class, Primates order, Hominides family, Homo genus and Homo sapience species.

A biological point of view is a form of reductionism and it's rather difficult to apply to matters of personal development. We talk here not only about masturbation, but rather about its possible impact on personal development. If you want to involve any science psychology fits here better, philosophy and probably psychopathology. Of course these are soft sciences without hard evidence nevertheless they have something to say about it.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Yes, proliferation instinct is different from feeding instinct.
Abstinence will not kill an individual, it is much more dangerous. If allowed it will lead the species to the extinction. Therefore proliferation instinct is at least as powerful as feeding instinct. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food takes precedence over food. But since we are talking about healthy, well nourished individuals living in a safe environment, sex drive is the most powerful instinct at work.

I never promoted endless abstinence. I'm sure and even biology supports my point of view that one year of abstinence does not kill anybody and does not lead to extinction of species.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Where do you get it from? What is the purpose of saying that?
This is a claim that you can't possibly prove. And I can't really disprove it.
For me masturbation was never a kind of withdrawal. How can I prove it? I can't. And you can't prove otherwise.

You mean you always do it in public????

Originally Posted by Ilya

That's like making any other unprovable claim. You either believe it or you don't.
Now if we are not trying to start a holy war here, we need some provable claims here. Can you provide some? Or are you just speculating?
I'd like to hear from the guys on trial what their achievements would be. That will be something to discuss. I expect to hear about more energy, more clarity. That's what I had after just a week of abstinence.

Just for the record - we are here on a personal development forum. Full of unprovable claims. Relationship is at better an area of interest of psychology - also full of unprovable claims. Of course you can reject it in the whole but I doubt it'll make you wiser. There are different points of view. I don't want you to believe in what I'm saying. I want to explain what I think and show you that one can be non-Christian and not dogmatic but still think differently.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Here, you just did it again! You sound very condescending to the people who are happy with casual sex. Well, there is casual sex, sex in long relationships, sex in marriage, all kinds of sex and there is even masturbation. And all this activities can make the same person happy. One does not prevent another.
But if someone can feel happy from only some of these activities and not from the others, that, in my opinion would be something to worry about.

Tell me why should I not be condescending to the people who choose the wrong path? And why anyone should worry if his not taking pleasure from casual sex?

Originally Posted by Ilya

Who told you that relationships are difficult? They are fun, if you do them right. Sex can be difficult if you do it wrong. Masturbation can be difficult and not so fun sometimes. These are all independent things - sex, masturbation, relationship, love, marriage. All of these things can happen at the same time, or at separate moments. Why pleasure from one must lead to discomfort of another is unclear to me.

I don't say that relationships are difficult to me. But I think that for many people they are, because if they were simply fun then why anybody should masturbate? Here you contradict yourself because previously you wrote how difficult is for young males to get a girlfriend. For many adult man too. I don't think that sex and relationship are independent. It happens so that people try to separate them, put in different compartments but this is unhealthy. I speak now from psychological point of view. Namely object-relation theory.

Originally Posted by Ilya

I can't tell you. I don't believe that masturbation denigrates sex to a mere release. Maybe you can tell me how it happens exactly? In my experience, masturbation can teach that sex is not about mere release. In fact it can teach all things you name as benefits of sex and I agree with them. But for some reason, you deny masturbation this potential.
Probably you think that it never goes beyond a frantic 10-second jerk in the bathroom that everybody starts with. Well, for some people it doesn't. It is the same as some bad lovers who never advance beyond a frantic 10-second poke. You know such guys exist, don't you? But it doesn't lead you to come down on sex. You use your experience with sex, which seems to be good.
Why do you deny the existence of enlightening, skillful masturbation, that boards with meditation (no pun intended)? I can tell you from my experience that such masturbation exists. It is in fact a part of Tao sex teachings. But a man can not reach this level if he does not start with that first frantic jerk. Just like any good lover goes through a scary, confusing, and sometimes disappointing "first time".

Maybe masturbation is very useful in learning how to stroke your penis in many different sophisticated ways, but I think that this and other sexual experience is better to get with a partner. Or maybe you think that only masturbation can lead to great sex? Also this enlightening experience you can attain with partner and then it goes much deeper

Originally Posted by Ilya

I meant controlling the need beyond the point of diminished return. I can see reason to control the need to masturbate 7 times a day. I don't see reason to try to abstain from masturbation for more than a week at most.
You seem to think about masturbation as a "bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated." That is what the whole debate is about.

You seem not believe that after some period of abstinence drive weakens. You can also consciously avoid sources of excitement (indecent movies, pics etc.) and at last but not least - find and please your wife