[Ilya]

I agree with Erki almost on every point he makes, but I'll give my version as well.

Originally Posted by moonlite

Now, I'm lost - can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you name 'natural' in this case.
Anyway, in my worldview sex means much more than making babies, afterall I'm not an animal.

Nutural means, I don't know, "from the biological" point of view. Biology does not make a huge distinction between humans and other animals. Doing so would be inconvenient and would contradict Okham's Razor principle. That's scientific point of view. Humans are animals that share most of their traits with animals plus have this thing called consciousness. It does separate us from all other animals, but the last I checked we still belonged to the animal kingdom, mammals class, Primates order, Hominides family, Homo genus and Homo sapience species.

I think that this is a wrong comparison. I deem comparing food to sex very misleading. These are very different needs. A one year abstinence won't kill you, but 30 days without food probably will.

Yes, proliferation instinct is different from feeding instinct.
Abstinence will not kill an individual, it is much more dangerous. If allowed it will lead the species to the extinction. Therefore proliferation instinct is at least as powerful as feeding instinct. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food takes precedence over food. But since we are talking about healthy, well nourished individuals living in a safe environment, sex drive is the most powerful instinct at work.

I'm glad that you wrote it. If that is the case what's the point of masturbation? It does not lead to proliferation of species. The more so - if compulsive it can be even harmful to it.

It keeps the male fertile and ready to copulate when the chance occurs. Even two days abstinence reduces the sperm count and the therefore chances of conception. Of course, excessive ejaculation has the same effect, but I do not advise to go for records.

"If" is the operational word in "if compulsive", isn't it?

Maybe now this debate is louder, but I'm sure that it lasts far more longer, about 3-4 thousand of years.

Any examples? When I read say, Roman and Greek sources I see that homosexuality was customary and wide-spread, that it was ok for brothers to have sex with each other, that the age of consent was about 13 years old and I won't continue, because what was customary then, can now put the owner of the forum in trouble for me just mentioning it. I can't really see any serious debate. There could be conflicting customs of different tribes, but debate?

Masturbation as I wrote is a kind of withdrawal, an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation.

Where do you get it from? What is the purpose of saying that?
This is a claim that you can't possibly prove. And I can't really disprove it.
For me masturbation was never a kind of withdrawal. How can I prove it? I can't. And you can't prove otherwise.
That's like making any other unprovable claim. You either believe it or you don't.
Now if we are not trying to start a holy war here, we need some provable claims here. Can you provide some? Or are you just speculating?
I'd like to hear from the guys on trial what their achievements would be. That will be something to discuss. I expect to hear about more energy, more clarity. That's what I had after just a week of abstinence.

I'm not expecting better appreciation of long-term relationships or better sex life. If this is reported, then we would discuss it. Maybe I'll sign up for the same trial then.

You wrote it not me I don't think that someone cannot be happy with casual sex. He can, especially if his it not aware that he's missing something.
And that's the reason why it's so easy to do some sexploitation. If everybody was unhappy with masturbation and casual sex there would be no point in our discussion.

Here, you just did it again! You sound very condescending to the people who are happy with casual sex. Well, there is casual sex, sex in long relationships, sex in marriage, all kinds of sex and there is even masturbation. And all this activities can make the same person happy. One does not prevent another.
But if someone can feel happy from only some of these activities and not from the others, that, in my opinion would be something to worry about.

For me sex is about relationship. The two are inseparable. Of course I know that people are eager to deny it because sex is fun and relationship are difficult. But it does not change the situation.

Who told you that relationships are difficult? They are fun, if you do them right. Sex can be difficult if you do it wrong. Masturbation can be difficult and not so fun sometimes. These are all independent things - sex, masturbation, relationship, love, marriage. All of these things can happen at the same time, or at separate moments. Why pleasure from one must lead to discomfort of another is unclear to me.

When someone masturbates a lot he/she can't see it so clearly. Then he/she tends to separate the two, denigrating sex to mere release... Tell me please how can it help?

I can't tell you. I don't believe that masturbation denigrates sex to a mere release. Maybe you can tell me how it happens exactly? In my experience, masturbation can teach that sex is not about mere release. In fact it can teach all things you name as benefits of sex and I agree with them. But for some reason, you deny masturbation this potential.
Probably you think that it never goes beyond a frantic 10-second jerk in the bathroom that everybody starts with. Well, for some people it doesn't. It is the same as some bad lovers who never advance beyond a frantic 10-second poke. You know such guys exist, don't you? But it doesn't lead you to come down on sex. You use your experience with sex, which seems to be good.
Why do you deny the existence of enlightening, skillful masturbation, that boards with meditation (no pun intended)? I can tell you from my experience that such masturbation exists. It is in fact a part of Tao sex teachings. But a man can not reach this level if he does not start with that first frantic jerk. Just like any good lover goes through a scary, confusing, and sometimes disappointing "first time".

That was my irony... And the wrong analogy once more.
Now I don't understand. How controlling any need can be the waste of time, and how could it be waste of willpower???

I meant controlling the need beyond the point of diminished return. I can see reason to control the need to masturbate 7 times a day. I don't see reason to try to abstain from masturbation for more than a week at most.

I don't think of sex as a bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated. I deem it powerful tool, a beautiful gift from G-d. A kind of power supply, wellspring of energy and joy to be used wisely. This is the way in which His light travels through worlds. And I could not imagine greater pleasure than being His light transmitter.

Nobody says you do. You seem to think about masturbation as a "bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated." That is what the whole debate is about.