[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

That is true. But it is not always an advantage of human intelligence. Most of the time we are attaching false meanings to things.

Yes, you're right.

Err. I'm sorry, where did this come from? The so called "natural" worldview states that sex has not deeper meaning other then making babies. This is called proliferation instinct. Are you going to argue with this? You can attach any meaning to it, if you want it, but this one is given.

Now, I'm lost - can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you name 'natural' in this case.
Anyway, in my worldview sex means much more than making babies, afterall I'm not an animal.

Humans indeed are abstraction machines. Take hunger. It has no meaning other then to make us get food. But humans abstracted the pleasure associated with eating and created a whole culinary art out of it.
Is it good? Can't say. This is a whole avenue of personal growth to pursue the good taste. But when it comes to a situation when people wouldn't eat something if is does not have a pleasant taste, this is an illusion of growth, it is actually a form of degradation.

I think that this is a wrong comparison. I deem comparing food to sex very misleading. These are very different needs. A one year abstinence won't kill you, but 30 days without food probably will.

Coming back to sex. It's purpose is to breed. The rest is attached meanings.
Some of them are benefitial, some of them harmful. And our strength should be in being free from these attachments and being able to choose what meanings we attach to sex or any other activity.

I'm glad that you wrote it. If that is the case what's the point of masturbation? It does not lead to proliferation of species. The more so - if compulsive it can be even harmful to it.

Currently the huge layer of meaning attached to sex is the layer of social conditioning. Debates on monogamy-polygamy, homosexuality, masturbation, age of consent are part of it. And we've started tackling these issues mere hundred years ago at most. Speak about turning the time back.

Maybe now this debate is louder, but I'm sure that it lasts far more longer, about 3-4 thousand of years.

In a version that I wrote above it is freeing from social conditioning.

I'm not sure if you can truly free yourself from social conditioning. I don't consider it something wrong, it depends what kind of society it is. What I can see now is that although Western culture is free from many ancient taboos it does not mean that people are more free in connecting with each other, they tend rather to withdraw. Masturbation as I wrote is a kind of withdrawal, an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation.

This is the same kind of social conditioning. You are implying that only sex inside long relationship is essential to our happiness and masturbating and having casual sex means that you are a kind of outcast, dork or oaf, at least in a personal development area, which is of course completely untrue.

You wrote it not me I don't think that someone cannot be happy with casual sex. He can, especially if his it not aware that he's missing something.
And that's the reason why it's so easy to do some sexploitation. If everybody was unhappy with masturbation and casual sex there would be no point in our discussion.

Why do you make solo practices and casual sex mutually exclusive with building a relationship?! Why do you substitute word sex with word relationship? Sex is not just about relationships, and relationships are not just about sex, although sex and relationships do contribute to each other.
And talking just about the quality of sex I have a strong feeling that both male masturbation and having multiple partners before entering long relationship helps. Not necessary, but helps.

For me sex is about relationship. The two are inseparable. Of course I know that people are eager to deny it because sex is fun and relationship are difficult. But it does not change the situation. When someone masturbates a lot he/she can't see it so clearly. Then he/she tends to separate the two, denigrating sex to mere release... Tell me please how can it help?

Oh, come on! Nobody masturbates because they fear that sperm will blow up their brain. As nobody eats because they are afraid to die from hunger.
People do it when they feel the need to do it. This need can be controlled, of course, but there is a point when controlling it becomes the waste of time and willpower and the returns diminish below any reasonable levels.

[/QUOTE]

That was my irony... And the wrong analogy once more.
Now I don't understand. How controlling any need can be the waste of time, and how could it be waste of willpower???

I don't think of sex as a bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated. I deem it powerful tool, a beautiful gift from G-d. A kind of power supply, wellspring of energy and joy to be used wisely. This is the way in which His light travels through worlds. And I could not imagine greater pleasure than being His light transmitter.