[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

I think that you don't miss the pieces of irony in my posts

May be But you write with such zeal I take it serious, just in case.

I never wrote that you have to resign from sex

Neither do the people who accept masturbation.

- I think that for anyone who wants to have sex (especially if his 'starving') better is to find a girlfriend.

Yeah. Get a girlfriend. Just like that. Of course this is better. Unfortunately it is hardest for those who are "starving" the most - teens. So you really think that anyone actually chooses masturbation over getting a girlfriend? You know, getting a girlfriend requires some skill, and if I may remind you, these days it may take several years between being able to have a girlfriend to kiss and spend time together and being able to have sex. I think a lucky 10 year old can have a girlfriend. I'm not sure when kids start to have sex these days in the US.

You know - the sex drive is only instinct which decreases when not satisfied, that's also the great difference from other human needs like food or water. Of course not after two days or two weeks of abstinence, maybe 3 months can bring substantial results. It does not mean that if for you guys is so difficult - it's utterly impossible.

Right. 3 months. You know after a couple of weeks of fasting, you are not hungry anymore and can go on for several weeks more. Then there is this little thing called death happens, but the instinct is long gone.
Of course, nobody dies from abstinence, but there are major health problems associated with it. Fortunately there is no way to force it really beyond the point of wet dream. The body is protecting itself from the negative effects of abstinense. And the stress of abstinence is always there. Now if there is the easy and natural way to fight this stress, why not do it? Why take the long and unnatural way, when there is a straightforward one?

So go ahead and find some nice girl

I have a wife thank you very much. But, go tell this to desperate 16 year old, who happens to be smart in science, but not smart with girls. It would take him several months to get a girlfriend if he starts learning. And being sexually frustrated does not help - makes him doing stupid things.

I disagree with you. First - you, as a human have no faintest idea what does it mean to be an animal. You can only mimic them (or rather what you have seen on Discovery channel) and you do if you resign from exercising your free will. But still you are not animal but a man who behaves like his imagery of animal behavior.

Actually I have no faintest idea what does it mean to be human, for that matter. I hope to figure the bits and pieces of it during my lifetime.

Having said that, it is not that hard to get to the animal level of behavior. I've owned a dog, and had a lot of time to watch it and to study from it. I know how it feeds, I know it breathes, I know it doesn't think.
There are techniques that let you enter the "animal state" and go way beyond what can be seen on a Discovery channel.

It's a kind of cliche to think of a man as a very close to animals in sexual matters, it's only kind of theoretical frame which a not-good-at-all makeshift for even more disturbed Christian view. Let me give you one example. Think about rape. 'Animalistic behaviour' would be taking lonely woman when she's not guarded by other men and rape her. But it's relatively rare - the most of rape cases occurs among people who at least know each other. Not necessarily very well, but at least a bit of seduction had taken place. Sometimes they are already married.

Wrong. Or at least bad example. Even in animal kingdom rape is not common. This is one bit that can clearly be seen on the Discovery channel. Females choose the males who compete for the females attention. This is the fundamental property of gender reproduction.

Why? IMHO because in sex of humans always involved is a symbolic layer.

Now, "always" is a very big word. And I'm not quite sure what symbolic layer are you talking about. I'm pretty sure, I can feel sexual arousal at a glance of a nice and absolutely unfamiliar female... let me say... body, usually seen from behind. I have no idea, what symbolic layers involved there.

A rape never is a plain realization of an animal urge - unless you are retarded and have no idea of the rules of society - it involves a domination-submission game and so on.

Exactly. Rape is built on top of the animal instincts. Animal females do not go
to the lair of a male, who they don't see as a sexual partner. They do not let males make their advances if they do not like them. They hit the male with claws and bite him till he bleeds. It is in human society, females are forced to be nice to an unworthy partner instead of clawing his face at a mere hint of inappropriate advances.

You cannot turn back the time and be back on the trees. And I even don't want to.

This is what I call human arrogance . It is not even our ancestors living on trees, it was our own species. There is nothing to turn back, really. No significant time has passed. What we call "morale" is just 2007 years old. Protecting the different versions of this morale has lead to atrocities unspeakable in the nature kingdom.
And there is no contradiction between acknowledging our nature and advancing our civilization. Roman Empire was one of the pinnacles of human civilization, however it was devoid of hypocrisy we are dealing with these days.

It all comes down to what we believe, but having a part of yourself and clearly marking it as bad... Well, I believe it is bad for whoever does it. Knowing yourself, both animal and human traits is essential for growth. Shutting some parts away is harmful for growth. Then everyone decides for themselves.