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Hsiang-Lin · 08-01-2007, 08:36 AM

Mark Lapierre & Michael Chui:

Let me try to understand what you are saying. You're saying God is based upon an unproveable assumption, hence it is simply speculation. True, but this is under the view of SCIENCE. Based on the scientific view, there is clearly not enough information to validate the existence of God.

Michael you write, "Failing to agree on self-evident propositions immediately makes a conversation pointless." Right there, you are viewing faith in view of the scientific method. That statement assumes that we as human beings have the final say on everything that is: that we know what's best for us. There is no room for faith or hope in a scientific world as yes, it is ultimately pointless to try to prove God's existence in such a model.

BUT, I am saying do not just analyze everything within the scientific view. A religious view of the world does not mean you have to separate science and religion. You can believe in God and believe in the connection between science and religion. But analyzing God, faith, and hope under the lens of the scientific method is not really fair.

Also, how do you classify hope in you model?

AidanMatthews216:

By beyond our minds, I meant beyond the scientific approach as mentiond above. We can surely imagine creations beyond science can't we? Belief in God, magic, fiction, etc. lies in this category.

You write, "I don't see why those things have to be approached as something outside of science or something we can't explain with our human mind and senses." Well, if you take the middle ground, then yes those things don't have to be approached outside of science. But once again, if you believe in God, that does not mean you have to forsake science.

The difference between a God that "just is" and a reality where things just "are" is hope and faith. Why do you have such feelings? Why do you have morals? Why do you persist in the face of opposition? Science cannot sufficiently fully explain why things are the way they are.

As for your last statement on open-mindedness, how do you know you are the final say in what is reasonable or not and what's best for you? Other people can often see your faults that you cannot see yourself. There are so many cases in the world of people who believed in one thing and changed for the better by listening to good advice. People who lose massive amounts of weight is such an example. Just b/c the market is flooded with crappy advice does not mean there aren't nuggets of gold in the pile. It is a tough process though, indeed.

Perhaps a good question to ask is, under your current model of thinking how does it explain hope, faith, and love?

08-01-2007, 08:36 AM	#114 (permalink)
Hsiang-Lin Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 261	Mark Lapierre & Michael Chui: Let me try to understand what you are saying. You're saying God is based upon an unproveable assumption, hence it is simply speculation. True, but this is under the view of SCIENCE. Based on the scientific view, there is clearly not enough information to validate the existence of God. Michael you write, "Failing to agree on self-evident propositions immediately makes a conversation pointless." Right there, you are viewing faith in view of the scientific method. That statement assumes that we as human beings have the final say on everything that is: that we know what's best for us. There is no room for faith or hope in a scientific world as yes, it is ultimately pointless to try to prove God's existence in such a model. BUT, I am saying do not just analyze everything within the scientific view. A religious view of the world does not mean you have to separate science and religion. You can believe in God and believe in the connection between science and religion. But analyzing God, faith, and hope under the lens of the scientific method is not really fair. Also, how do you classify hope in you model? AidanMatthews216: By beyond our minds, I meant beyond the scientific approach as mentiond above. We can surely imagine creations beyond science can't we? Belief in God, magic, fiction, etc. lies in this category. You write, "I don't see why those things have to be approached as something outside of science or something we can't explain with our human mind and senses." Well, if you take the middle ground, then yes those things don't have to be approached outside of science. But once again, if you believe in God, that does not mean you have to forsake science. The difference between a God that "just is" and a reality where things just "are" is hope and faith. Why do you have such feelings? Why do you have morals? Why do you persist in the face of opposition? Science cannot sufficiently fully explain why things are the way they are. As for your last statement on open-mindedness, how do you know you are the final say in what is reasonable or not and what's best for you? Other people can often see your faults that you cannot see yourself. There are so many cases in the world of people who believed in one thing and changed for the better by listening to good advice. People who lose massive amounts of weight is such an example. Just b/c the market is flooded with crappy advice does not mean there aren't nuggets of gold in the pile. It is a tough process though, indeed. Perhaps a good question to ask is, under your current model of thinking how does it explain hope, faith, and love? Last edited by Hsiang-Lin; 08-01-2007 at 08:48 AM.