[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by Lychee

You cannot see the very governing property of the universe. You are seeing the effect. I don't see any pillars holding up the sky, yet there are invisible "pillars" which is holding up the atmosphere. What is this invisible force which can be measured, but not seen?

Seeing is measuring. If I cannot see the properties of the universe because I can only see their effects, than I can also not see the room I'm sitting in, but only its effects. Humans can only observe effects, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're ultimately observing the world "out there." If you can't see something which is immediately in front of you it's only because you can't mine your observations for the correct information.

But why? What evidence is there that these laws are maintaining itself?

Plenty, but that isn't my point. The alternatives are not "man created it" or "God created it." That assumes everything needs a creator. Why?

There's no reason to believe in anything else, either.

When I can see something, I believe it.

Yes, but why should we look for certain values and why should we avoid other values?

Because we choose to.

Life must always be read, of course. You are saying that there is no reason to believe in God, but you could also say that there is also no reason to believe that life is just the what it is.

Everything is "just the way it is"... in a sense. If something exists, it exists unconditionally, whether you can see an explanation to it or not. I'm not sure how to put my thoughts on this into words, but this is my best shot...

I think what you mean is that if you read to the very cause or the very truth, you won't find the precursor to it so in the end, the only meaning would be the cause. Am I right?

Yes, basically.

But why? Who cares if people die and how they die or what they die for if there is no meaning to death at all? Death would be meaningless and the laws which you believe are just as they are would have no purpose. You've excluded the possibility of God based solely on your belief that laws are as they are. But how do you know they are as they are? What evidence is there - something which cannot be argued - that there is nothing more or no God?

I don't think life or death are meaningless without God... our human judgment gives them meaning. Even if they were a meaning offered to us "from above"... say in the form of a book or a religious prophet, wouldn't we have the choice to accept or reject it as the basis of our morality? Nothing is "good" in itself--only good according to our perspective.

God is all about truth, but we are not God. We have to have evidence to determine between what is truth and what is false. We judge to determine what is truth and what is false. So if someone is acting truthfully, aligning himself to God, while the other is acting falsely, not aligning itself with God, how can the two people be considered equal? God is the creator and maintainer of Good. Anything that goes against Good in this life results in negative consequences. It is only logical to assume that there are negative consequences for people who act against Law, too.

Negative consequences according to who?