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haider · 05-13-2007, 10:36 AM

Frans,

You seem to jump to conclusions in your reasoning and, therefore, your arguments are not entirely logical.

No matter how powerful your imagination is, it is only a means by which you can form *mental* images based on concepts you have perceived with your senses. You can integrate different perceptions together (castle + clouds = castle on clouds), but you cannot escape the realm of your perceptions. You cannot imagine a colour you've never seen before, and any scenery or creatures you can imagine are based on your perceptions, and the concepts you extracted from what you have seen, which you then integrated in different ways.

Having said that, if you can imagine your life better than what it is, you are able to shift your reality towards what you would *like* it to be, by using your vision as a template. But this does not mean that you have created a new reality, or that your imagination dictates what reality is like. You can jump off a building and imagine that you have wings, but the end result is: SPLAT!!

To quickly run through the points you mentioned:

* Removing things around you in your imagination doesn't remove them from reality. If you don't like me, I will still exist! You can ignore me, but that's not a nice thing to do :P (and I would still exist)

* "Nobody can prove to me that I don't exist": Based on your later reasoning, it is entirely possible that you don't even exist! You can just be a thought of some dude in a totally different universe who thought: "What would it be like if I was a human being that looked like such and such...?"

* "... and nobody can prove to me that they exist": Of course they can't, if you choose to deny all possible forms of proof (sense perception and reasoning).

* "As my senses cannot register everything": This does not undermine what you do get to experience and register. If I can't see beyond a mile, it does not mean that the mile I perceive is fake.

* To accept that there *is* something your senses can perceive - regardless of how distorted your sense-perceptions are - you admit that there is an objective reality, even though you are not good at perceiving it. And this certainly doesn't grant you the ability to shape the objective reality around you.

* To describe the universe as an aspect of yourself is a play on words. YOU are a part of the universe! You were created with a consciousness, and are able to perceive the environment around you. Just because you depend on this environment does not make it a part of you.

And if the universe is an aspect of you, as you say, then do you know and understand everything about you? If not, why is that? You will realise that there are factors beyond your control, which goes to prove that you're not the only existent in existence!!

Finally, about the lucid dream: You seem to enjoy mixing imagination with reality. Dreams are the work of your sub-conscious mind, and depend on your experiences in reality to form the mental images you get in a dream. They may feel vivid and more real than reality (that's because your mind can amplify your emotions, and include details that would not be present in reality), but you cannot equate reality to your dreams.

If I dream one day that all those around me are, in fact, aliens pretending to be humans, you can safely assume that I will not wake up with that impression.

The problem with the belief in SR is that you can continue digging for yourself a hole that will be more and more difficult to escape from. The more you use your imagination to define reality, and the more you deny your intellect and your sense experience, the more you erode your ability to realise that the world you exist in is objective, but that you are choosing to deny that it exists, or that it is possible to know what it is like.

05-13-2007, 10:36 AM	#84 (permalink)
haider Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 23	Frans, You seem to jump to conclusions in your reasoning and, therefore, your arguments are not entirely logical. No matter how powerful your imagination is, it is only a means by which you can form mental images based on concepts you have perceived with your senses. You can integrate different perceptions together (castle + clouds = castle on clouds), but you cannot escape the realm of your perceptions. You cannot imagine a colour you've never seen before, and any scenery or creatures you can imagine are based on your perceptions, and the concepts you extracted from what you have seen, which you then integrated in different ways. Having said that, if you can imagine your life better than what it is, you are able to shift your reality towards what you would like it to be, by using your vision as a template. But this does not mean that you have created a new reality, or that your imagination dictates what reality is like. You can jump off a building and imagine that you have wings, but the end result is: SPLAT!! To quickly run through the points you mentioned: * Removing things around you in your imagination doesn't remove them from reality. If you don't like me, I will still exist! You can ignore me, but that's not a nice thing to do :P (and I would still exist) * "Nobody can prove to me that I don't exist": Based on your later reasoning, it is entirely possible that you don't even exist! You can just be a thought of some dude in a totally different universe who thought: "What would it be like if I was a human being that looked like such and such...?" * "... and nobody can prove to me that they exist": Of course they can't, if you choose to deny all possible forms of proof (sense perception and reasoning). * "As my senses cannot register everything": This does not undermine what you do get to experience and register. If I can't see beyond a mile, it does not mean that the mile I perceive is fake. * To accept that there is something your senses can perceive - regardless of how distorted your sense-perceptions are - you admit that there is an objective reality, even though you are not good at perceiving it. And this certainly doesn't grant you the ability to shape the objective reality around you. * To describe the universe as an aspect of yourself is a play on words. YOU are a part of the universe! You were created with a consciousness, and are able to perceive the environment around you. Just because you depend on this environment does not make it a part of you. And if the universe is an aspect of you, as you say, then do you know and understand everything about you? If not, why is that? You will realise that there are factors beyond your control, which goes to prove that you're not the only existent in existence!! Finally, about the lucid dream: You seem to enjoy mixing imagination with reality. Dreams are the work of your sub-conscious mind, and depend on your experiences in reality to form the mental images you get in a dream. They may feel vivid and more real than reality (that's because your mind can amplify your emotions, and include details that would not be present in reality), but you cannot equate reality to your dreams. If I dream one day that all those around me are, in fact, aliens pretending to be humans, you can safely assume that I will not wake up with that impression. The problem with the belief in SR is that you can continue digging for yourself a hole that will be more and more difficult to escape from. The more you use your imagination to define reality, and the more you deny your intellect and your sense experience, the more you erode your ability to realise that the world you exist in is objective, but that you are choosing to deny that it exists, or that it is possible to know what it is like.