What is this that I read? I gave you a link before yet no one seem to have read it. Better yourself people. It feels like my opinion on this subject was utterly ignored, I would expect more from the Steve Pavlina forums.
Now, let's go through this topic, I will begin by quoting myself:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by The Universal Call |
This site has been so valuable to me I chose to do a 4-page assignment on it, summing up all necessary parts and adding a few arguments myself. If I can put myself to translating it someday I will post it here, the 4-page length concerns me however.
If you do but one thing this day, then READ THIS LINK. I will say that again: READ THIS LINK:
Why does a Universe exist? A journey beyond nothing. Go. Yes, now. Yes! Go, read it, now!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nico Kempe One cannot not be because the not being itself is a form of being..) |
You mean that one can not "not exist" because "nonexistence" can not be. Agreed, and this is explained in THOROUGH detail in above mentioned link. Read... read now.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nico Kempe If you believe in something like a God who has created this all, then when/how is that God created?
I think you're getting to the problem of infinity here. We humans just cannot grasp infinity, yet we go into infinity with what we'd like to know. |
It's true that in some sense we might just never grasp infinity, everything we humans have experienced have been finite, so we have nothing to compare with, even though we make good attempts on such. We humans can not maybe grasp infinity, but the biggest mistake made by people is that they won't let themselves accept infinity, this is of negative nature to us all.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zach The thing about God is, he "is, was, and always will be." He wasn't "created", but has simply "existed", similarly as "energy" has always existed. Therefore, in my opinion, it's just as easy for me to believe in God as it would be for you to believe in an eternal energy that flows among us, the tree, animals, etc. It's impossible for humans to know how God truly works, because we are mortal and unable to grasp the concept of infinity, of a being. |
Yes, it is just as simple for you to believe that, given. But whilst we have proof of the existence of the universe and "energy" (or as Paulo Coelho would express himself: "The Universe is made of love", okey, that might not be his correct words, but I digress, he's very profound anyway
) we don't have any proof of "God"'s existence, do we? Given, you could call the universe for "the eternal and almighty God" but you could as easily call God for "the infinity universe". See the point?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zach Once more, how did life become so complex if no intelligence was behind it? Why is the human body so complicated, yet it runs in perfection and harmony? Why are so many creatures and plants so gorgeous if it happened by chance? |
Intelligence?
As explained in my provided link the universe had no other option BUT to exist, for the "why?" on that part, read the link. What is intelligence? Or more specifically, what _was_ intelligence? Today we humans compare ourselves to other mammals and animals, and speak of intelligence, but as given in Steve Pavlina's 16th podcast, what can we really prove? We can prove our own existence (i.e., "mine", not "yours"/"others"), we can not prove that a dog is thinking, we can not prove a tree has a conscious awareness of itself and its surroundings, in fact, there is very little we can prove. Back "then", what was intelligence? It might have been a being, like you or me, with intelligence, indeed, but it could also be something unexplicible - it could be the tree, which to us have no "intelligence". As far as we are concerned this "God/Universe/whatever" might just have been anything else, without a proven conscious awareness, or intelligence. We don't know if that piece of paper has an intelligence, we assume it don't, but we can't prove it. That piece of paper might just be the same consciousness which "created" the universe, prove it otherwise.
The force which created the universe (once again, call it whatever you want) might have had intelligence, it might not have had, we don't know. As far as we are concerned the universe and it's "complex life" (as you describe it) might just have been an unconscious being going on "automatic", without intelligence, without thought, just doing what the universe had to do - exist.
Zach, you also speak of the beauty of life, the complexity which is found all around us. Given my earlier arguments (which are not to degrade your belief, trust me) let's continue them in the same direction. What is beauty? What is complexity? I say, this complexity, and this beauty - had to exist. Life has no other alternative than to blossom (as explained in my link... once again...). Why didn't ugly life blossom you ask (I hope you're not)? Change perspective for a second - can you say that life is complex and beautiful just because (your) human senses say so? To a martian your sense of complexity might just be their sense of simplicity, to a zarachnoid your sense of beauty might just be their sense of ugliness. This isn't proving my case much, "it is in the eyes of the beholder", right? They say you have to "experience having little in order to appreciate (and understand) having much", now imagine in a far away land. In this land there are only the colors of red and blue, there are no "attractive women" - but these are equivalent with rocks, in this land; there is only simplicity. From this land's point of view, from its perspective: what is beautiful? Why, someone say: "I find blue very beautiful", whilst someone else says: "No, definitely red, I have never seen such a beautiful color in my life, beauty is in red." What is attractive?, you ask them. "That blue rock there is very attractive, I think I am going to ask it out later." Oh, and how are your inner organs and such, got everything fixed, you healthy? *The inhabitant replies you and explains with most vivid detail how they are and tells you how their body is constructed in such a manor which is equivalent of your own complexity construction x 100* That isn't simplistical!, you say, out of pure shock of hearing this. "What?", the inhabitant inquires. "Compared to our neighbours we are but only a little bug to them", it explains.
Have I gone too far in explaining my point? Look back upon your own situation now, who are we to say that we are complex, that we are beautiful? Did it really take an intelligence to create us, or are we just as simple as the air which surrounded the inhabitant above?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TechnoGuyRob I would provide a long, drawn-out explanation, but suffice to say, if you are concerned with the formation of space and time as we know it, there is no doubt that it originated as is described by the Big Bang Theory. |
I don't disagree with how the Big Bang might have shaped our universe, I do disagree however how it is "the origin of the universe". Reading my link should give some insight to you. Actually, there is so much to cover about the link I have provided, I have just been given a bit more inspiration about doing that "translation of mine". Until then, draw your own conclusions and please give any feedback to the link. I think, with my belief about the origin of the universe, the universe is infinite, has always existed, and will always exist. The Big Bang theory has a few flaws, as mentioned earlier by [someone], but it could very well have have provided the universe with all the galaxies we have today.
As goes for all you others on this thread as well, if you have some criticism, comments, reflections, feedback, on my provided link, which I hope I have made it clear for you to read (I am actually bluntly forcing you). I will be happy to discuss it further, and it will not surprise me even one bit if one of you find a flaw/several flaws in this theory, it will be a pleasant read for me. As stated earlier, I want to learn more and more about this subject, every realization is a good realization.