[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by InJoy

The human factor is where you lose me.

Right. Your argument is that the "human factor" is a magic factor of randomity that foils all the carefully laid plans o' mice and men. In essence, it's now come down to a faith-based argument: the ultimate justification for your position is "because I said so".

Originally Posted by InJoy

I can decide to change my mind in an infinite number of ways.

First off, no, you can't. Just try arguing against that. Or rather, prove that there are an infinite number of ways in which you can change your mind.

Second, no matter how many ways you can change your mind, there are an equal number of ways in which you can't change your mind.

Third, the idea that the human being is so utterly special that, for some subset of his actions, there exists no discernible reason for them, is the grand sum of arrogance.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I'm glad you also say, we probably won't know everything about people. But why is that irrelevent?

It's irrelevant because I put a time frame on something that shouldn't have one. Bad form on my part.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It does seem like you are saying everything is like a bunch of billard balls bouncing off each other and there's some underlaying mechanics that are exact. And if we could know all the positions of all the parts and how they bounce, then everything will have a certain outcome that doesn't happen other than the way that is mechanically going to happen. The only reason your gf will like the gift is because parts of her are ready to bounce off each other in response to getting the gift - her mind and hardware has been programed and the program is going to fire a certain way. Is this close to your take on free will/determinism?

Yes.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Thinkers, scientists have for a long time been thinking we can just decompose and analise all the parts and eventually an equation will be able to represent the whole universe. That's reductionism.

It is not, however, my argument. I am not suggesting that it can be decomposed. I am suggesting that it can be predicted.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

There are ideas that we aren't just a mechanical device but that our thoughts and perceptions effect our cells and how our genes work.

What affects thoughts and perceptions in the first place?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

That there is a self conscious mind that is able to exert freewill that is different than all the programmed stuff.

Is a self-conscious mind programmed?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

All the programmed stuff is there and operating in the now, has no time frame.

Why?

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Only the thinking mind can have thoughts about time.

Also, why?

Incidentally, does anyone know anything about chaos theory or complexity theory? I'm not familiar enough with them to be sure, but there's probably some good points against my position in there.