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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre  Apparently we're not all that good at predicting what will make us happy. |
Yet.
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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre Could that be why you don't think there are degrees? The quality itself is distinct from the emotional response? |
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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre 1) Beauty falling within a region implies degrees of beauty. It can't be the same beauty if one object meets some expectations and another meets less. Or if one object causes a stronger reaction than another. Unless, as mentioned before, we separate beauty from the emotional response, though I don't think that's possible in reality even if it is on paper. |
There are two types of statements:
"It (is/is not) beautiful." and "This is (more/less) beautiful than that."
My opinion is that the former is a sensical statement, whereas the latter is not. I cannot take two people, put them side by side, and say, "You're more beautiful." I can't compare two paintings like that, or any other artwork. Falling within a region doesn't imply degrees at all. (It doesn't say anything about degrees.)
Consider your classic Venn Diagram. Does the presence of regions imply degrees?
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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre But I suspect that for that change in preference to happen, my emotional response to dimples would have changed. Which supports the idea that expectation isn't a necessary element of beauty. |
As I said, that feels too isolating. It's as if you're going down a checklist and saying, "Got dimples? Check. Got blue eyes? Check. Got blonde hair? Check." And from that concluding, "Yep. Score is above 60. That's in the beautiful range." You've separated everything out such that you aren't expecting the holistic entirety anymore anyways. It's not the person that's beautiful; it's their dimples, or lack thereof.
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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre I'm trying to think of times where I've considered something beautiful, and to think of what about it exceeded my expectations. I've seen a similar sunrise at NYE the past two years, from the same vantage point out in some nearby mountains. Much about the experience was different the second time, and I had clearer, and therefore more expectations, but I still considered it as beautiful as the first time. |
Did you honestly have a picture of the sunrise in mind just before you saw it?
I walk the same route to campus just about every day of the week. I've had the vast majority of my classes in the same building for the past two years. And it's never dull or dreary, because I can see differences all the time. I might perceive them without committing them to memory, but the pattern changes. I recognize it, but I also see what I don't recognize.
And it's a beautiful campus.
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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre I don't agree with Robert Jordan (or whoever he stole it from), I can compare two sunsets, and in doing so neither loses anything, in my mind. |
Hrm, but that's not how he meant it, as I thought I'd conveyed. Like the sunrises, both women were very beautiful. Different, true, and beautiful for different reasons, but that did not diminish either for it. By responding with the question, "How do you compare two sunrises?", he was saying that a sunrise is as beautiful as another sunrise. They aren't the same, but that takes nothing away from either.
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Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre 2) The horizontal axis seems reversed. Unless "violates" means "exceeds" (which "Here, it's too weird" says it doesn't). But in that case the circle for beauty would extend to infinity; if something continues to exceed my expectations (in a positive way) it will only seem more beautiful. |
Hrm, you're right. I think I carried Aristotle a mile too far on my back. I was so busy thinking about moderation as virtue (and thus extremes as vices) that I didn't realize what I'd done.
The idea of infinite beauty is a fascinating concept; I have no idea. If your idea of degrees of beauty is right, I'd imagine that "absolute beauty" is a threshold point after which everyone agrees on its beauty.
Let me present a new idea that others (incl. myself) have hinted at, but haven't actually said:
Does beauty depend on narrative?