Since it is such a complex concept I suspect much of our apparent disagreement stems from discussing specific aspects of beauty, while the other is considering another aspect. Or looking at the whole picture while another points to one small section.
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Originally Posted by Michael Chui  I'm not terribly convinced you can measure beauty, even when you can predict it.
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I think that beauty is, or isn't. I don't think there are degrees. |
Apparently we're not all that good at predicting what will make us happy. Perhaps predicting what we'd consider beautiful is difficult for the same reason, whatever that reason is. Something to consider at another time
But while beauty can't be quantified, we can and do make qualititive judgements on what is and isn't beautiful. We differ in opinion here; I think there are degrees of beauty. Though what I consider beauty includes the strength of emotion felt when admiring something beautiful. Could that be why you don't think there are degrees? The quality itself is distinct from the emotional response?
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Originally Posted by Michael Chui A person would be very unlikely to remark on the beauty of your eyes; instead, they might find you beautiful for a different reason. |
But people have remarked on the beauty of my eyes. I've never thought of them as beautiful, but at least 3 others have. Different expectations, different perception of beauty. Interesting...
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Originally Posted by Michael Chui That seems to address something different. Since beauty is part and parcel an emotional response, any accompanying emotional response may change one's reaction to it. "He was such a beautiful guy... but now that he's dumped me..." |
Yes, hence considering something beautiful when happy, but not so when not. But I was referring to different people, not the same person's dimples at different times. But I suspect that for that change in preference to happen, my emotional response to dimples would have changed. Which supports the idea that expectation isn't a necessary element of beauty.
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Originally Posted by Michael Chui No. If expectations are not exceeded, I would say that it won't strike you as beautiful. (One of the greatest things about human beings is their constant change: thus, no matter how well you know a person, you can always been surprised just enough to trigger beauty.)
Without the extra twist, it's far more unlikely to register, because you already anticipate everything about it and nothing will trigger a change in perception. The low end of that is that you notice it. The high end of it is beauty. |
I'm trying to think of times where I've considered something beautiful, and to think of what about it exceeded my expectations. I've seen a similar sunrise at NYE the past two years, from the same vantage point out in some nearby mountains. Much about the experience was different the second time, and I had clearer, and therefore more expectations, but I still considered it as beautiful as the first time. I don't agree with Robert Jordan (or whoever he stole it from), I
can compare two sunsets, and in doing so neither loses anything, in my mind.
The only thing that I can think of about the second sunrise that wasn't anticipated, was that I still felt it was beautiful despite not lasting long because of some low clouds. However it was beautiful before the clouds cut it short. If the clouds hadn't been as thick (and they weren't so thick the previous year) it would have still been beautiful.
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Originally Posted by Michael Chui So, let's take a spectrum. On one end, we write, "It meets every expectation." Here, it's unextraordinary. Boring. Invisible. On the other, we write, "It violates every expectation." Here, it's too weird. Uncanny Valley. Disturbing. Alien.
In the middle, we have two axes. One is horizontal (from "meets" to "violates"), and the other is vertical (reactions from "positive" to "negative"). Fix the zero point at the "meets" end of the horizontal axis, and at the center of the vertical axis. I would say that beauty is found in the region of 40-80% towards the "violates" end, and somewhere in the positive portion. |
There are two things which immediately strike me as not fitting my understanding of what you've said so far.
1) Beauty falling within a region implies degrees of beauty. It can't be the same beauty if one object meets some expectations and another meets less. Or if one object causes a stronger reaction than another. Unless, as mentioned before, we separate beauty from the emotional response, though I don't think that's possible in reality even if it is on paper.
2) The horizontal axis seems reversed. Unless "violates" means "exceeds" (which "Here, it's too weird" says it doesn't). But in that case the circle for beauty would extend to infinity; if something continues to exceed my expectations (in a positive way) it will only seem more beautiful.
George: I'll take the perfectly laid, polished boards, thanks
I agree about the beauty to be found in imperfection. I think, at least where people are concerned, it's partly because some attempts at appearing beautiful are so obviously attempts to cover up perceived lack of beauty, and that poor self-image, regardless of physical qualities, is unattractive. Too much make up, a "fashionable" dress that doesn't suit a woman's body shape, an otherwise nice shirt/t-shirt that doesn't fit well, a popular hairstyle that doesn't suit the person sporting it.