[Dr Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Isis Kali

OK...educate me here, please. No, honest. I want to know.

It would be a pleasure.

So...are you guys being PUAs in order to just get laid more and pat yourselves on the back for being really Zen about it? I'm not understanding. Or, are you trying to make yourselves more conscious men in order to meet and relate to conscious women?

Both. And if you think there is something wrong with getting laid more I'd encourage you to consider where that belief comes from. More sex, love, affection and fun is ALWAYS a good thing.

As a very attractive woman with very attractive female friends, I just don't like the thought that there are these roving men looking to get with us so that they can brag and make a game out of our affections. It seems predatory. I don't get it.

Well of course, but then that assumes that the reason guys get involved in the "PUA community" is to "brag and make a game out of your affections". I'd encourage you to consider where that belief about men came from too. I've met quite a few guys through this community, some I've got on with and have a lot of respect for, others less so, but I've never yet met a guy looking to brag or to make a game out of girls affections. Most guys get into this because they want to be more attractive and share more positive experiences with girls they find attactive - reread that sentence and consider if it isn't exactly the same reason most girls get into fashion, beauty and all the other things women do to get quality men. I don't think there's anything predatory about that.

I know that many of you mentioned the negativity that wrongly-utilized PUA technique can create. I'd love an explanation by the guys on this board (who I hold in very high regard) as to what being a PUA means to you. I'm hoping that it's not just being "Jack the Lad", and is more along the lines of presenting your best face forward in order to find a great woman.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head, with 2 minor exceptions:

1. I'm not looking just to present my best face, but also to improve myself so that I've got something even better to present.

2. I'm not looking for a great woman, I'm looking for great women. The community is full of guys with all sorts of different relationship orientations, some want a monogamous long term relationship, others want lots of casual relationships, I personally am polyamorous and want lots of great girls I can have meaningful and satisfying relationships with. There aren't a huge number of truly poly guys in the community, it tends to be either guys looking for a one-on-one relationship or guys looking for lots of casual sex, but the incidence of polyamorous people IS noticably higher than the overall average in society at large, probably because the community encourages people to challenge their assumptions, overcome their social programming and consciously make decisions for themselves. These are all good primers for becoming poly.

And what makes someone the "best pickup artist" somewhere? The most numbers? Needing to buy a huge, economy-size box of condoms?

Sadly this is often what gets idolised in "the community". Probably because a lot of guys haven't had much success with women and they think sleeping with a lot of people is somehow glamorous.

I'd encourage you to consider that you characterised yourself as very attractive, less attractive girls may glamourise looking like you, it is only because you look like you do that you realise it is a thin veneer and that beauty is not as glamorous as it seems to these less genetically fortunate women.

Think of it this way: Take a moderately attractive woman, who has always felt secretly jealous of the prettier girls who get all the attention when they go out together. Give her a makeover and make her one of the glamorous girls who gets all the attention - how long before she realises she doesn't really want lame guys approaching her all night trying to buy her attention with drinks, asking her mundane questions about her life and generally boring her to tears? How about how long until she feels like everyone relates to her only on the level of her physical appearance and can't see past that?

It's the same with a guy who improves himself (and for men, it's not so much appearance but character which he has to improve), at first he glamourises being the cool guy who gets all the chicks, then he realises it's not really what it was cracked up to be, and that there has to be more to life than validating himself by the reactions he gets from women.

So the thin veneer of glamour which both men and women aspire to in terms of feeling and being more attractive is only perceived as a veneer, and as basically worthless, once you've had the opportunity to see if from the point of view of the attractive person. It's all very well to judge people wanting this, but unless you've walked in their shoes you can't really fully understand where they are coming from.

I wholeheartedly encourage people, both men and women, to make their own mistakes in this as well as other areas of their life. We learn best by doing.

For me, what makes someone the best "pickup artist" is if he is truly happy with his relationships with women, if he gives more good feelings to women than other guys, and if he always acts ethically (which is a prerequisite, since acting unethically always eventually sabotages true happiness).

Feeling poetic as you ride into the sunset and don't call the next day? I'm sorry, me and my girls have shot many of you guys down. You can smell players from a mile away.

It sounds like you have been hurt by a "player" in the past. I can't speak for the community at large, but my friends and I have as little respect for guys who lie and cheat to get girls as you do. The better side of the community is not about this, on the contrary it's about being more authentic.

That is why I doubt you have "shot many of us guys down" - we are not talking about the same guys.

Gonzo