[Annemieke]

Originally Posted by Melchior

As for the things you linked, I find spiral dynamics a bit too categorical, and too focused on human consciousness, i.e. the transformation of what Anagogy called the base shape. Still, it may have some uses in that regard, but as for the actual evolution of consciousness stuff, not as much. With the altitude thing, the colors reminded me of the visible spectrum of the electromagnetic radiation, not only because of what Bohm was talking about, or the actual use of colors, but because the way I think human consciousness might actually be in this spectrum might just be what the span of visible light is to the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

My main interest in these kind of questions about consciousness is also in Altitude and not so much Spiral Dynamics. But as I understand it all, the Altitude model is mainly based on the Spiral Dynamics model. There has been a lot going on about how to interpret it all by several groups of thought about that, which all have interesting things to say.

So I mainly use the Altitude model because I find it the most interesing. But that said, I think there is a real danger in using this kind of models. I think it is very tempting to identify with a certain phase and catagorise other people in a certain phase.

I think it is much more complicated than that. And people are in several stages at once. Someone might very well ‘be’ in a certain stage at a mental level. But at the same time be at another stage on an emotional level. So as an ethical model it is very dangerous I think.

But as an abstact model I find it really very interesting. And I use it a lot to try to understand things.

If you consider what Ariel has said about raising vibration, equating to the raising of our frequency on the consciousness spectrum, then humans may very well reach their upper limit just as our eyes reach their upper limit in determining colors past violet. Imagine, what would something at gamma consciousness be like? Infinite frequency might be all of nature (everything), and zero frequency might be 'nothing', complete unconsciousness.

What you say here is also very interesting. Personally I think that some people might rather early in life be in that sort of vibration. Maybe even all children are in that sort of vibration if they are born. We might call that complete unconscious, but I am not so sure about that.

I also think our lives are meant to gain more consciousness then what we are born with. And the only way to do that is by personal experiences and gaining knowledge. First within the setting of the family and cultural background, but later on as an autonome individual.

But becoming such an individual is what I would call a transformation instead of a development or evolution. And is what Jung calls the individuation process. This is an important phase, also for the integral theory about Altitude, because it differentiates this sort of gamma consciousness.

There are pre and trans rational states (states are used different from stages as far as I understand it) and rational is what I would combine with individual development.

So both might look a lot like each other (maybe have the same vibration) but the difference is in the person who ‘owns’ it.

So, then, by analogy, what do we do to increase frequency of an electromagnetic wave? energy? no, that just increases intensity.

That would in this line of thought indeed only increase the intensity. But still I would guess it is energy. Personally I think that all consciouss growth happens with a combination of action and knowledge. And translated back to form and intensity that would mean a combination of those.

A combination that needs the other, builds up gradually. Action needs reflection and then again action is needed.

Rather, it'd be a change to the source of oscillation. This is where the form, as discussed before becomes important, as even if the intensity of a beam of light dies off, the individual packet of information (the photon) will be at the same frequency (what's interesting here too is that the frequency is measured by the energy as well, albeit with a factor of planck's constant).

Maybe once it is formed (a piece of subconscious becomes conscious) it can not go back again. Not necessary it has to grow further, but at least it stays in that ‘form’.

It does not have to lead to more evolved action, but that sort of action would be the way to further development I guess.

Still, I wonder if this is just old news and I simply haven't read enough on the stuff yet...

I think this is a fantastic example of what I meant earlier. Personally I think it is all about the individual combining outside and inside knowledge. You can read everything there is to read (well, that would not be actually possible but in a matter of speaking) but it really comes down to combining it with some kind of inner knowledge.

Either you call it intuition, or subconscious (not that they are the same, but then again maybe they are) or soul or self, somehow it has to be a combination between that and the rational 'reading' part (passive potential and active structure) and those have to grow by the action of our physical presence (active potential and passive structure).

Well, still my line of thinking at this moment.