[Narz]

dor, I try to shape my worldview to conform with reality. I never claimed that no great thinkers had a religious side. Many great thinkers were religious, racist, alcoholic, addicts. Doesn't mean they're not great. Just that they have acquired limiting habit patterns from society as a coping mechanism. It's understandable.

Originally Posted by JHL

Hey Narz, I agree with much of the sentiment you're raising here and your frustrations obviously have a strong basis in reality. I, myself, also had a bit of a rant about the environment the other day

The Personal Development issue I was offering up for your consideration, however, is based on the psychological concept of projection and also the 'new age' equivalent that says that before we look at the world outside of us, we first look inside oursevles and then project what we see onto the world. Hence some people see the glass half full, etc.

This doesnt mean, of course, that what you are seeing in the world is not real - but what it does mean it that to some degree it exists inside of you too. And if you really want to effect change - as the cliche goes - you really need to change yourself first.

I like you JHL but I disagree you have to change yourself first before taking any actions. If we all waited 'till we were without sin to cast the first stone (so to speak) oppressors would rule the Earth while the "meek" (who are meant to suffer this time around so they can score in heaven) suffered and toiled (it's a clever idea really, the dude who came up with the "meek shall inherit the Earth bit must be chuckling in his grave ).

Originally Posted by JHL

Following from this logic - can you see that by attacking religious people and being hostile to people you consider as being a part of this 'unacceptable' paradigm, you are really attacking this aspect in yourself. In other words you are subconsciouly continuing to reject your own undesirable aspects.

I'm not rejecting them JHL. For all I know dor is a swell fellow, perhaps even more talented and gifted than the great Narz (), because I see superstition and "indoctrination" (as our friend would say) as a negative influence I aim to shine the harsh light of critical thought on it in order to help others. Not that I'm so far along, but the fact that I still struggle doesn't mean I'm not qualified to help point out pitfalls to others (just as a green belt can help a yellow belt to use Steve's karate analogy). I admit, I seek to eradicate pain creating belief systems and habits (with some success and some failure, slow & steady progress though) within myself. I don't see this as a bad thing though.

If my approach is a bit harsh it is because that's what worked for me. Sugar coat the truth enough and pretty soon all people can taste is the sugar (or if they taste truth in with it they'll spit that part out).

Originally Posted by JHL

It follows, therefore, that if you could try to be more tolerant and accepting of these people and try to demonstrate a more loving stance towards them, THIS will bring about the change you seek, because by doing so you will begin to accept these aspects within yourself, and this is how you will bring about change in the world around you. Remember the insight - its not about them, its really about you. That is the illusion of life.

But I am loving towards them. If I didn't love people why would I point out potential pitfalls to them?

Originally Posted by JHL

Consider the responses to your current approach here - does it appear that it is bringing about healing, or an even greater polarisation? Have you EVER seen this approach work anywhere? Force achieves a reluctant compliance at best, but love gains respect, connection and understanding.

I've gotten mixed results. I haven't done well in converting those who staunchly oppose me but I have developed connections with intelligent allies (like AntiVentureCapital) and middle grounders (like yourself) along the way.

Honestly, I don't particularly care about being friends with everyone. I call it how I see it, some will be with my, some against me, and some'll just grab some popcorn and enjoy the ballgame. I'm not shooting to kill and hopefully dor isn't so rageful as to come to my house and kneecap me while I'm asleep because he felt slighted on the Net.

It's all in good fun and it amuses me to see how people paint me up like their enemy (cynical people tend to view me as a hippie while new-agers tend to see me as overly cynical). I play devil's advocate because everyone agreeing with each other is boring as hell, a metaphorical circle jerk. There are no good movies without conflict, battle and resolution. I can't imagine there are good lives with those elements either.