[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Melchior

I'm trying, I'm trying, I really am... My thoughts/talking to myself: I think I'm starting to understand the "planes" of consciousnesses. perhaps we're trying to go uphill then? but why have a picture at all if you can exist without it? everything that you can 'look' at is already created by yourself or am i also misunderstanding this information that consciousness essentially operates on as something that is independent of itself, that the information is really part of consciousness as well? I suppose that must be the case though, but then, where does the structures come into the picture? perhaps they are just an aspect of the whole of consciousness?

Yes, the channels or pathways of thought or consciousness have always existed and always will. But from the highest level of consciousness they don't exist, because it is EVERYTHING. When everything is taken together, there is non duality, and everything is homogeneous and all opposites cancel each other out. There is nothing but pure being at this level, and yet this void is pregnant with the potentiality of all infinity.

Originally Posted by Melchior

There's something similar to this from the physical model I work from, a collected system of particles and interactions. Yes, the difference is that one has rules and the other has, well, more... But why is the information limited in the first place? perhaps, there's just a part of the thing that makes it limited. it certainly makes a better compliment to nothingness, I think. granted, i'm more partial to calling it all information as opposed to all consciousness, because without that information it would be nothingness. I suppose that's another property as well?

I don't believe in nothingness. The consciousness *IS* the information, from my perspective. All information is consciousness. Thoughts are the "shape" awareness has taken on at any point in time. That shape can be infinitely broad, or infinitely narrow, depending on the thought. For example, particulate matter could be an example of a narrow (or restricted) thought. Where as something intangible like the thoughtform of "freedom" or "space" could be a more broad example of thought.

Originally Posted by Melchior

but is there a difference between zero and null/mu? the all is consciousness essentially describes the many, many world hypothesis where an infinite amount of worlds each with its own set of rules exist simultaneously, with even higher "planes" describing the combination of these worlds and so on. of course, then, there can be no 'highest' consciousness because it goes to infinity. no beginning, no end.

Well I would disagree that there is no "highest". I believe there is a vantage point in consciousness that enfolds ALL potentials of beingness (or infinity), which is like the void/null point I described earlier. The planes of consciousness are like plateaus of choice of experience. At the most broad point (the non dual point) is the stepping off point for ANYTHING one might embrace as a conscious experience.

Of course, the limiting factor in CHOICE is always a factor of how AWARE of other choices you are. Therefore, the more restricted your experience has become, the longer (experientially speaking) it will take for you to expand beyond that experience. Practically speaking, this means if you are experiencing what it is like to be an amoeba, it could take some time before you "evolve" out of that state of consciousness or experience, to a more broad form or expression of consciousness.

There is no beginning to consciousness, but there appears to be a beginning to the moment when one chooses to "leave" the non dual state, and because of that, there will also, inevitably, at some point, appear to be an end to that as well. The great circle of life (or rather, consciousness), as it were.

Originally Posted by Melchior

I'm reminded of the big bounce theory in a way, but that isn't too important because it doesn't need to happen either. the structures exist because they have to then. the all consciousness/information model necessitates the existence of everything, infinitely, of course. Hmm... interesting result: this also means that there's no good reason for qualia to exist for us, except that it has to for something and that something is what is communicating here. in said model, there is also no free will, as everything that can happen does happen. i.e. we're already zombies and always will be.

I'm not following you here. Qualia is inherent to existence from my perspective. I suppose, subjectively speaking, that may or may not be viewed as a "good reason" for it's existence.

More on free will below:

Originally Posted by Melchior

No, if this is what you mean by the all consciousness model, then I don't see any internal inconsistencies in it either, it has all its bases covered, so to speak. It doesn't really make sense to talk about the discoveries of anything, because all that will be discovered anyway. What I write here, may not even get to you, even though somewhere out in the infinite world of information, you will read this. I wonder though, is there really no limit to the information?

There are limits in OUR reality, but not in the "absolute". The limits in our reality are self imposed however. Our attention to limits is what creates and perpetuates them in our experience.

Even though there are an infinite number of parallel worlds, accounting for all eventualities, it does not exactly mean there is no free will. On the contrary, you can go ANYWHERE from where you are, right now.

In the ONE, we are all the same. All divisions are arbitrary.

Your particular consciousness, which perceives itself as separate from the one, with its peculiar development of preferences and inclinations is FREE to explore those any way you desire. And all those other parallel realities are also FREE to explore their infinity any way they desire. It is our egos that have preferences, however, the One is perfectly happy to be infinitely experiencing all realities. But, as I tried to indicate earlier, from that perfectly broad point of awareness, all these parallel realities cancel themselves out in a sense.

Balance is always the end result. Unity cannot exist without balance.

In a sense there is no free will, but only in the sense that you do not really choose your desires, they sorta choose you, in a way. You have the freedom to achieve anything you desire, but what you desire was predestined, based on your original "desire less" choice. I suppose we might even consider that to be a random factor.

Originally Posted by Melchior

I suppose not, but the information will be limited in some regions of it. but that's not the whole picture. the reason why I haven't seen anything out of the 'ordinary' is because there must exist a temporal slice of everything that has this to be the case. There will exist information out there, somewhere where I will either accept that this is a possibility and one where I don't, one where I (but there is no 'I' is there, only information working itself out, consciousness doesn't have any role in the matter anymore either, unless consciousness is simply the communication of this information.) Do you know, you've essentially 'killed' yourself completely. You don't exist, existence exists. you are part of that existence and you can't do anything about it. there is no change, because all that change is already all accounted for. Oh dear god, i need to stop myself... now.

Haha, yeah, I went insane too, at first.... <consults voices in his head>

<goes back to writing>

I guess it all depends on what you define your "self" to be. I identify myself *AS* existence, itself. Consciousness is existence. I think you are overcomplicating this whole thing (which is easy to do btw), but everything is just experience. A huge infinite field of conscious experience.

When in the absolute zone, all experiences cancel each other out. An experience, and its perfect opposite cause transparency to occur, unless you are looking at them as separated. In the absolute, they are not separate. This is equilibrium. All there is at this level is consciousness of consciousness. One can choose to leave this state, or remain. There is no time here. The choice is always made to leave, it is inevitable. And because there is no time, it could be viewed as instantaneous the moment you achieve it. The big culmination occurs, and a new relative infinity is born.

When you leave that experience you can have experiences of separation, like we are having right now. All this experience is enfolded in the One. But separation allows you to sift through it, develop preferences (as long as you have consciousness of memory, that is). It "appears" tangible when you are not taking all experience in at once. But it's not, it's just consciousness.

Originally Posted by Melchior

Unfortunately, I'm also partial to theories which allow for free will and non-determinism. I think I have figured it out, this whole consciousness(/information) thing that you've proposed, at least to a degree where it has become consistent. Let me tell you, if you haven't already guessed it from what I wrote above, that it has been one a hell of a mind trip. It also brought along with it a sense of deja vu, if that means anything to you. >.>

Oh believe you me, I'm VERY aware of "mind trips".

And about the deja vu: I'm sorry if you feel like our discussion is going in circles, it is was not my intention, if that is how you feel. For what it's worth, I'm really enjoying this exchange because your probing questions are giving me more motivation to articulate my thoughts more clearly.

Best regards.