[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Victor Vikingr

There will always be death, it's impossible to live without killing. However, that doesn't mean we should kill more – I'd say we should rather focus on killing less.

Of course there will. I was just applying the same analogy to plants.

I actually Googled "Do plants feel pain", and there are many interesting articles that claim that at some level, they just may. If this is true, how do vegetarians and other non meat eaters defend their own killing?? I personally don't believe that they have any need to because everyone has to eat, but I do think it's a good question anyway; for the sake of conversation.

The bottom line is, humans and other creatures need to ingest organic matter in order to prevent starvation and live.


I get my eggs (which I very seldom even eat BTW) from a little girl down the road; a friend of my son's; who sells them. She has about 50 or so chickens, give or take, along with a few turkeys, a few sheep and goats and other little critters. This child just loves animals and takes very good care of them all. I guess you could call them true "free range" eggs; whatever that means.

So I'm no "Egg Nazi" personally, but if I were to buy them at the grocery store, which I have; many times, just as I have gotten them from locals who happen to raise chickens; I still wouldn't consider myself to be a participant in anything remotely close to what Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot and others have engaged in against their fellow human beings.


Nature operates and species survive as a direct result of the life/death cycle of other living things; and that too is perfectly "natural".

But; humans aren't going to stop eating eggs and/or other living things any time soon; if ever; unless we create some new type of food that sustains human life without killing anything in the process; and it would also have to taste good or no one would want to eat it. At this point, that is highly unlikely to happen any time soon.

Again, I never have and never will condone outright cruel treatment of animals, but I also will never buy into ideas such as "total animal liberation" that groups such as PETA advocate. It's an unrealistic and very dangerous idea.

Turning lions, tigers elephants and other animals loose from our zoos and freeing every domestic creature to roam wild and survive on their own would be disastrous, and thankfully, PETA and those who support such an agenda will never get their way in this country. We just can't have lions, bears, elephants; roving packs of wild dogs and feral felines and other potentially dangerous creatures roaming our towns and neighborhoods; stalking and devouring our children and others; not to mention spreading disease. It's just and unrealistic, and IMO, truly ill conceived and dangerous goal. It would also be dangerous for the animals themselves in many cases.

Also; animals themselves will never give up killing in order to stay alive, and that's just the way it is. Of course, they have no industrial complex to make their killing more efficient or expand it on any scale, but whose to say that they wouldn't if they had the intelligence to create such a system to save themselves the trouble of hunting and decrease their chances of starvation when hunting isn't so good?? Squirrels and other critters store up food during the warm season to survive the cold winter. Lots of animals do, so in a sense, they';re similar to us in that way. The obviously have a certain degree of intelligence to do this.



We humans just happen to be on the top of the food chain for the most part, but occasionally, people are still occasionally killed and/or eaten by wild animals; and sometimes, even domesticated animals.

But it's a cruel world as far as food/eating/survival is concerned at many levels; from the tiniest creatures right up to humans, who have managed to figure out how to mass produce food so that more people may eat, be it animal or vegetable. It's an ugly and brutal business in many cases, but a starving child in the Sudan wouldn't care one bit if he or she were given industrially produced eggs for breakfast today. He or she would be grateful that someone; somewhere made it possible for them to eat for another day; the death, mistreatment or confinement of chickens be damned.

Without industrial food production, the number of people on this planet would without a doubt be far lower, because there just wouldn't be enough food to sustain the billions of people who live here. There IS enough food, but people still starve every day because other people aren't getting enough of the food to those who need it the most. We throw enough food in the garbage every day to feed the world.

We have to ask ourselves another question. Who would we to allow to die off in order to stop industrial farming and food production? Who gets to decide who gets to eat and who must starve in the end?? I sure wouldn't want to be the one making that decision.

There are lots of good causes, but they have to followed to their logical conclusions and consequences before they're implemented on any grand scale. We can ban the type of egg production and other methods that people find repulsive and wrong when it comes to food production, but what are the consequences and who; and how many humans will die as a result?? This then becomes an ethical question. Which is better; doing no harm to animals in every situation or allowing millions; if not billions to just die due to a lack of food?? Do you want to make that choice and decide who gets to live and who must die? I don't.

I'm also not talking strictly about animals either. Lots of people are against industrial farming of fruits and vegetables as well for various reasons. Again, if we were to eliminate it, who then decides who gets the lower quantity of food and how is it divided up??

If everyone just raised their own food, what about places where it doesn't rain for a few years and nothing will grow?? What happens during famine times? Do we just say "oh well, that's their problem; let em' die"?? I hope not.

It's usually the industrialized countries that DO mass produce all kinds of food that step in and at least attempt to feed as many as possible when those situations present themselves, and without modern methods of food production, we probably wouldn't be able to do so at the level we're currently able to. Food is shipped by the tons into famine stricken areas every day, yet people are still starving to death daily.

Every 8 seconds a child under 5 dies from water born disease or from a lack of water somewhere; and in many cases, it's simply a result of those people lacking the means or knowledge to drill a well. It's sad, but true.

So; are we our brother's keepers?? If we are, are we not obligated to produce as much food and clean water as we can in order to step in and help those in need??

It ultimately comes down to ethics, and even though we need to treat animals ethically and not be overtly cruel to them; which I'm all for; but not to the extreme like PETA and other groups are. I mean, PETA has openly condoned the fire bombing and murder as a means to "liberate" animals. I just can't buy into that type of mentality.

Again, this is another cause that has to be thought out to it's logical conclusion and consequences, and killing and maiming humans as a means to implement "total animal liberation" is something I will never agree with.

PETA is an extreme example and overly used as an example; and it's always the extremists who give any group a bad reputation; and create a situation that most people don't ever want to be associated with. OTOH; there are also many extremely wonderful groups that do many good things to improve the lives of animals, but they don't destroy property, commit arson and murder; or harm their fellow human beings in the process.

I think a sensible and reasonable balance is probably a good long term goal as far as this issue is concerned. We all need to eat, and need to produce enough food to feed as many as possible, because there ARE billions of people who need to be fed. But we also need to stop wasting food for starters (that's one of my pet peeves and something I NEVER do); and we can take steps to make life more humane for the animals that we do ultimately kill and eat.

We can also continue to promote the eating of more fruits and veggies, which we are doing, WAY more than in the past; but in reality, many people really LIKE to eat meat (and eggs of course) and as long as the demand exists, animals will be raised and killed for food, and eggs will continue to be sold and eaten.