[shanlstrick]

Hi all,
Not sure if anyone is still reading this thread, I was initially hesitant to post here because I know how these conversations can quickly degrade into arguments, mainly because of how deeply one side or the other believes in what they are saying.

I can see where both Angela and Dor are coming from and I admittedly am a bit confused as to why Angela considers herself an atheist, and that could be because I do not fully understand what an atheist is. My understanding was that an atheist didn't believe in any forces beyond what could be proven, which to me seems strange - if that's the case. But that's only my opinion which is one admittedly based on incomplete understanding on my part. I fully respect Angela and her position.

I no longer consider myself in any one camp or the other. I don't think there is a personal God, I do believe in a creative force, which could be called God, spirit or whatever you like. Fact is may physicists believe in a creative force that defies explanation, and many call it God.

In quantum physics we learn that there really is no separation between objects in the universe, all are part of a unified whole. On earth all organic life share DNA - plant and animal - the code or program of life, is that a coincidence?

What about consciousness? Science may speculate, but science has absolutely no idea where it comes from. It cannot be defined as an emergent property of millions of synapses firing in a neural net. Some may speculate it is quantum in nature, yet it is only speculation. At the quantum level you find that a particle (photon, electron, etc.) is not a particle that exists independent of observation. It takes an observer to manifest as a particle. Before the observation it is only a wave-function and does not exist except as a probability. To me that is a key - we create the very things we seek. A new hypotheses comes along and science finds it cannot work unless a certain as of yet undiscovered particle exists - a few years later they find the particle they needed for the formula to work - interesting huh?

Here is a thought - what are you without your thoughts? If you could empty your mind completely, get rid of all the chatter and memory - what are you then? If everyone could do that, you would find that everyone is exactly the same, the only difference would be your location - you would only be a point of perception - perceiving the universe.

I get a sneaky feeling that at the must fundamental level we are one and the same - the universe trying to figure itself out. What a remarkable gift. Facets of God? Parts of a whole? You may never die, you may cease to exist as the person you are now, but I feel you will always be a perceiver, but the ego-self, the identity you are now, is a collection of memories, which may be the only part that changes or is transitory.
There is a fascinating book by David Bohm (a forefather of quantum physics) called 'Wholeness and the Implicate order" - it's a great read.

Sorry to ramble so much, just my 2 cents, ultimately we should all just live and let live and enjoy this wonderful universe we are all a part of.

Like the fish said "What is all this water they are talking about?"
Shannon