Personal Development for Smart People Forums - View Single Post - The pillars of self-discipline

jedale · 01-21-2007, 10:16 AM

Thank you to all of you!

Great responses with some valuable points made

I am sorry if I came across as negative or self-defeating ... this was actually not the intention. Unfortunately the message I was trying to get across has been missed.

I was trying to create an analogy that shows the challenges of life in it's honest and unabashed form, where you must take the first crucial step to solving them - and that is to acknowledge that they are there. (While staying objective, and WITHOUT being self-defeating).

P.S. Reyv: I already own 'The Greatest Secret", written by Darrell Daybre, upon which the DVD movie "The Secret" is based upon.

Darrell's book gives you a broad and painfully obvious step-by-step formula for manifesting success, in the same clichéd fashion that centuries of previous books have done. (Step 1. Purchase car kit .... Step 2. Build car).

I think that many masters, teachers and guides are so unified with their knowledge that they don't recognized the key elements that make them different. As a result, they don't articulate these key methods, ingredients, transitional states, techniques that move you from one place of being to the next.

Let me give you a case in point example:

Mayo used an analogy of someone fighting for their life to become something:

"Would you rather give up and end up in the nothingness .... OR would you keep up and transform your self into something stronger, better and wiser."

This is a VALUABLE and POWERFUL technique to use for motivation, but let me explain why this technique, as solid and as powerful as it is ... still fails 95% of the time to transform people. Let's dissect it closely:

1. An assumption gets made that everyone in a life (or victory) or death (defeat) situation WILL fight for the former. This is sadly not true. The fact is that many truly struggling people DO NOT SEE an alternative situation enough to want to fight for it, and this is how they got into their predicament in the first place.

Every human being has an innate instinct for self-preservation. NO ONE should have to "consciously" choose to survive, whether it be emotionally, spiritually, or physically. If someone has to consciously "choose" to want to survive, against a deeper will to want to give up, something is seriously wrong.

2. Following with the same analogy, another unfortunate assumption that gets made about an individual in a death or life struggle is that the individual KNOWS what the difference between something-ness and nothing-ness is. In other words, it is assumed that the struggling person
can actually "see" a grand vision, or an alternative scenario to where they are at present, and one in which they can truly believe.

Again, this is an assumption. The fact is .... YOUR grandest vision of yourself is not the same as SOMEONE ELSE'S grandest vision of YOU. The truth is that many people GIVE UP and "LET GO" of their lives in a struggle because they DO-NOT-KNOW what their grandest vision is - for them. In their darkest moments ... when they are engulfed in the metaphorical murky waters of depression and defeat, THEY CANNOT SEE ANYTHING ELSE other than the murky waters that surround them ... In the moment of NOW. Perhaps they can conjure fleeting images of materialistic placebos such as winning the lottery, or being a successful spouse, being financially free, or being successful in their careers. Yet, to the despairing soul who sees only murky waters and war clouds, all of these wistful images are nothing more than pipe dreams.

They cannot "see" what is spiritual in nature, such as self-discipline. They can only hope for the physical creature comforts such as wealth, because their minds "know" what these things are. Therein lies another important distinction.

They cannot "think positively", because they do not know what "positive" is. They have "head knowledge" about positivity, goal-setting, vision, etc ... but they do not "OWN" this knowledge within themselves. They see it as being something rather nice .... but still ruefully distant from where they are. They try to set goals for themselves, but they give up quickly when they encounter obstacles, because there is no vision to drive them.

Indeed, they WILL see transformation as a PAINFUL process, like head-butting a wall.

For example, What is the point of giving up T.V. if you are not going to use that time to build on your GRAND VISION? otherwise, you simply create a black hole of deprivation, and this is what causes people to become ADDICTS. When you deprive yourself of the activity that you use as a distraction from your empty life, you feel deprived. When you indulge in your distraction, you feel guilty and empty. This "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is what I was trying to demonstrate in my "bashing skull against a concrete wall" analogy.

REMEMBER ... a distinction needs to be made between SOMEONE ELSE'S vision for you and YOUR vision for you. The fact of the matter is ... if you KNEW what your "VISION" for you really was ... your CHOICE to FIGHT ON in the face of all adversity would be AUTOMATIC. You would never need to consciously "think" about it. Nor would you consciously need to manifest "Will power", or "discipline". These things would come naturally.

Think of Lance Armstrong struggling up that steep hill on his bike ... his muscles are tearing and burning. His body is exhausted. Yet ... some invisible force pulls him up that hill. He did not need to read a self-help book that TOLD him that he should "fight on" in the face of adversity. He decided naturally and automatically. His PAIN actually TRANSFORMED ITSELF into PLEASURE OF "BEING". Paradoxically, it would have been MORE difficult for him to NOT "fight on".

Lance Armstrong is NOT a world champion cyclist because he has more DISCIPLINE or more WILLPOWER than all the other cyclists, or because he "fought against" his pain. He is a world champion because he WORKED WITH the laws of energy ... and he TRANSFORMED his PAIN ... in context of a grander vision of himself that was so natural to him; that to "fight on" SEEMED the "natural" thing to do. To everyone else around him, his "courage", "determination", "perseverance", "discipline" was CAUSATIVE. To him, they were SYMPTOMATIC. Those qualities were natural outcomes - they were "tools" that could help him shape the next grandest vision of himself. He NEVER had to make a "transition" from being a person WITHOUT "Self-Discipline" to being a person WITH "Self-Discipline". See the difference?

3. Elaborating on point 2, VISION has got absolutely NOTHING to do with "will power". Here is a further assumption made by the analogy of someone fighting for themselves. People assume that conscious "will power" and "discipline" are needed to be truly successful. While it is true that successful people do indeed possess these ingredients, I would like to propose that these qualities, or ingredients, are symptomatic and not causative. Once the Vision is in place, everything flows and "snaps" into place. Without the clear vision, you cannot compensate for this by trying to develop more "Discipline" or more "Will power". This is putting the cart before the horse.

Now this I believe is the key. The key is to know how to find a clear vision for yourself with SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY and ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY. To my awareness, no such tool, teaching, or device exists. The process of discovering one's life purpose is touch and go, with limited and unpredictable results.

I have spent many years trying to understand why some people find their life's purposes almost instantaneously, while others seem to wander aimlessly for many decades.

Could it be that some people were MEANT to wander aimlessly through life, without purpose? could this be the decree of the natural universe, as has been subtly indicated by Eric Pepin's book "The Handbook of the Navigator"?

Could it be that in order to preserve the natural order of things, that there must be a vast majority of wanderers, and a minuscule minority of visionaries, so that some kind of contrast may exist between the two groups, in order so that there may be devices of variety and comparison?

I have observed, for example, people who have filled entire journals of written text in an attempt to find their life's purpose and GRAND VISION, using techniques very similar to what Steve suggests. My hypothesis is that if these people cannot "SEE" their vision to begin with, than all the journaling in the world will not help them. When you write, you write what is within you. If that Vision is not within you then writing it out TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES will not help you.

So here is the great chasm. This is the riddle that I am trying to solve.

Are we predestined?

Is "Free Will" another of mankind's grandest delusions?

Can VISION really be created or found, if it is not already present?

Jason

01-21-2007, 10:16 AM	#7 (permalink)
jedale Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4	Thank you to all of you! Great responses with some valuable points made I am sorry if I came across as negative or self-defeating ... this was actually not the intention. Unfortunately the message I was trying to get across has been missed. I was trying to create an analogy that shows the challenges of life in it's honest and unabashed form, where you must take the first crucial step to solving them - and that is to acknowledge that they are there. (While staying objective, and WITHOUT being self-defeating). P.S. Reyv: I already own 'The Greatest Secret", written by Darrell Daybre, upon which the DVD movie "The Secret" is based upon. Darrell's book gives you a broad and painfully obvious step-by-step formula for manifesting success, in the same clichéd fashion that centuries of previous books have done. (Step 1. Purchase car kit .... Step 2. Build car). I think that many masters, teachers and guides are so unified with their knowledge that they don't recognized the key elements that make them different. As a result, they don't articulate these key methods, ingredients, transitional states, techniques that move you from one place of being to the next. Let me give you a case in point example: Mayo used an analogy of someone fighting for their life to become something: "Would you rather give up and end up in the nothingness .... OR would you keep up and transform your self into something stronger, better and wiser." This is a VALUABLE and POWERFUL technique to use for motivation, but let me explain why this technique, as solid and as powerful as it is ... still fails 95% of the time to transform people. Let's dissect it closely: 1. An assumption gets made that everyone in a life (or victory) or death (defeat) situation WILL fight for the former. This is sadly not true. The fact is that many truly struggling people DO NOT SEE an alternative situation enough to want to fight for it, and this is how they got into their predicament in the first place. Every human being has an innate instinct for self-preservation. NO ONE should have to "consciously" choose to survive, whether it be emotionally, spiritually, or physically. If someone has to consciously "choose" to want to survive, against a deeper will to want to give up, something is seriously wrong. 2. Following with the same analogy, another unfortunate assumption that gets made about an individual in a death or life struggle is that the individual KNOWS what the difference between something-ness and nothing-ness is. In other words, it is assumed that the struggling person can actually "see" a grand vision, or an alternative scenario to where they are at present, and one in which they can truly believe. Again, this is an assumption. The fact is .... YOUR grandest vision of yourself is not the same as SOMEONE ELSE'S grandest vision of YOU. The truth is that many people GIVE UP and "LET GO" of their lives in a struggle because they DO-NOT-KNOW what their grandest vision is - for them. In their darkest moments ... when they are engulfed in the metaphorical murky waters of depression and defeat, THEY CANNOT SEE ANYTHING ELSE other than the murky waters that surround them ... In the moment of NOW. Perhaps they can conjure fleeting images of materialistic placebos such as winning the lottery, or being a successful spouse, being financially free, or being successful in their careers. Yet, to the despairing soul who sees only murky waters and war clouds, all of these wistful images are nothing more than pipe dreams. They cannot "see" what is spiritual in nature, such as self-discipline. They can only hope for the physical creature comforts such as wealth, because their minds "know" what these things are. Therein lies another important distinction. They cannot "think positively", because they do not know what "positive" is. They have "head knowledge" about positivity, goal-setting, vision, etc ... but they do not "OWN" this knowledge within themselves. They see it as being something rather nice .... but still ruefully distant from where they are. They try to set goals for themselves, but they give up quickly when they encounter obstacles, because there is no vision to drive them. Indeed, they WILL see transformation as a PAINFUL process, like head-butting a wall. For example, What is the point of giving up T.V. if you are not going to use that time to build on your GRAND VISION? otherwise, you simply create a black hole of deprivation, and this is what causes people to become ADDICTS. When you deprive yourself of the activity that you use as a distraction from your empty life, you feel deprived. When you indulge in your distraction, you feel guilty and empty. This "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is what I was trying to demonstrate in my "bashing skull against a concrete wall" analogy. REMEMBER ... a distinction needs to be made between SOMEONE ELSE'S vision for you and YOUR vision for you. The fact of the matter is ... if you KNEW what your "VISION" for you really was ... your CHOICE to FIGHT ON in the face of all adversity would be AUTOMATIC. You would never need to consciously "think" about it. Nor would you consciously need to manifest "Will power", or "discipline". These things would come naturally. Think of Lance Armstrong struggling up that steep hill on his bike ... his muscles are tearing and burning. His body is exhausted. Yet ... some invisible force pulls him up that hill. He did not need to read a self-help book that TOLD him that he should "fight on" in the face of adversity. He decided naturally and automatically. His PAIN actually TRANSFORMED ITSELF into PLEASURE OF "BEING". Paradoxically, it would have been MORE difficult for him to NOT "fight on". Lance Armstrong is NOT a world champion cyclist because he has more DISCIPLINE or more WILLPOWER than all the other cyclists, or because he "fought against" his pain. He is a world champion because he WORKED WITH the laws of energy ... and he TRANSFORMED his PAIN ... in context of a grander vision of himself that was so natural to him; that to "fight on" SEEMED the "natural" thing to do. To everyone else around him, his "courage", "determination", "perseverance", "discipline" was CAUSATIVE. To him, they were SYMPTOMATIC. Those qualities were natural outcomes - they were "tools" that could help him shape the next grandest vision of himself. He NEVER had to make a "transition" from being a person WITHOUT "Self-Discipline" to being a person WITH "Self-Discipline". See the difference? 3. Elaborating on point 2, VISION has got absolutely NOTHING to do with "will power". Here is a further assumption made by the analogy of someone fighting for themselves. People assume that conscious "will power" and "discipline" are needed to be truly successful. While it is true that successful people do indeed possess these ingredients, I would like to propose that these qualities, or ingredients, are symptomatic and not causative. Once the Vision is in place, everything flows and "snaps" into place. Without the clear vision, you cannot compensate for this by trying to develop more "Discipline" or more "Will power". This is putting the cart before the horse. Now this I believe is the key. The key is to know how to find a clear vision for yourself with SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY and ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY. To my awareness, no such tool, teaching, or device exists. The process of discovering one's life purpose is touch and go, with limited and unpredictable results. I have spent many years trying to understand why some people find their life's purposes almost instantaneously, while others seem to wander aimlessly for many decades. Could it be that some people were MEANT to wander aimlessly through life, without purpose? could this be the decree of the natural universe, as has been subtly indicated by Eric Pepin's book "The Handbook of the Navigator"? Could it be that in order to preserve the natural order of things, that there must be a vast majority of wanderers, and a minuscule minority of visionaries, so that some kind of contrast may exist between the two groups, in order so that there may be devices of variety and comparison? I have observed, for example, people who have filled entire journals of written text in an attempt to find their life's purpose and GRAND VISION, using techniques very similar to what Steve suggests. My hypothesis is that if these people cannot "SEE" their vision to begin with, than all the journaling in the world will not help them. When you write, you write what is within you. If that Vision is not within you then writing it out TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES will not help you. So here is the great chasm. This is the riddle that I am trying to solve. Are we predestined? Is "Free Will" another of mankind's grandest delusions? Can VISION really be created or found, if it is not already present? Jason