[funchy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bailey

First off, I am not condoning a high diet of meat for all people; I just feel we as a society do not get enough GOOD QUALITY HEALTHY MEATS, PERIOD.

I agree with the lack of quality in the foods we buy.

However, the reality is that those good quality, healthy meats are just not available. There are two problems:

- people are not willing or able to pay $10, $15, $20 a pound for meat from an animal raised in such a way.

- let's say we're suddenly very wealthy and the cost of meat does not matter? Then we have a supply/demand issue. The resources will not allow for 300 million Americans to all have access to meat raised this way.


What's the point of advocating something almost nobody can acquire?

Where do you acquire it? Do you raise and butcher your own animals on your farm?

I do not need to hear about what they do to livestock and that the Chi of this animal is transferred to me after I eat it. If I were that uneducated about the subject I would never have said anything about Chi and how we get it from the animals we eat.

Then why did you bring up Chi if you don't want to talk about it?

Taking what is good from being a vegetarian and balancing it with eating some good quality meats.

"Balancing" implies that without good-quality meats, the diet is out of balance. What specific things do people need that they can't get without meat?

You also say we have people with a shortage of fiber in their diet. Agreed. But take a look at cultures that have very little fiber such as the Eskimos as of 50 years or so ago. They had a diet void of fiber, but yet thrived in their conditions and did not have cancer or heart disease of any kind until they started adopting the SAD.

I don't have studies on Eskimos' health. Can you point me to studies showing this? I'm sorry to sound skeptical but it's hard to believe they had no cancer?

So often we are hated by the vegetarian community.

I don't hate you. You can do what you wish, and you have every right to your own beliefs.

If anything vegetarians are hated because we represent change. People are not always comfortable with change. Those advocating a low or no meat diet also have to fight against the multi-billion dollar meat agribusiness industy. Even our Federal government's nutritional information and food pyramid are influenced by those who have a profit stake in meat production & consumption.

A person's right to exercise one's beliefs end when it negatively affects others. I speak up for the harm meat production does to public health, the environment, and to the animals themselves.

For example:
Did you know a pig produces the same amount and quality of feces a person does? Commercial pig farms may have 5,000 animals. A village of 5000 people must have a sewer system and treatment plant, but a pig farm at best has open lagoons of waste. Then the unprocessed waste is sprayed on fields to leave pathogens on plants or to run-off into streams. WHY do pig farmers get away with this while I need a septic tank if I were to build a tiny cottage in the woods? Same is true for poultry, dairy farms, and other confined animals.... vast amounts of untreated waste.

Sustainable Table: The Issues: Waste

Marks Dairy Farm Manure Spill Threatens Environment and Public Health

Factoid - That Stinks - Sierra Club

Manure spill poses no threat to Lake Ontario: official




So, yes, your choice to consume a luxury food item does affect others.

I am just putting all the cards on the table from both sides so everyone has a fair shake at what choice they would like to make at that time.

No, to be fair you're putting your cards on the table. You make no mention of any positive aspects of skipping out on meat.

I admittedly am biased against meat because I see no positive benefits of it besides supposed taste/enjoyment. It's unnecessary.

I am as much an advocate of being a vegetarian in terms of the amount of vegetables one should eat, as well as the inhumane treatment of animals.

Would you be willing to give up meat, if I could give you proof of how inhumane meat production is?

Who could argue switching to a vegetarian diet and making that person feel horrible physically and emotionally.

Something is wrong if a person stops eating meat and feels "horrible physically and emotionally". When I hear someone trying a veg diet and "feeling terrible" it often turns out they're not eating a balanced diet... period. Or some of them are bad eaters no matter what: living on twinkies and fried foods and such.

You write from a very western-diet mindset. You forget that in large parts of the world meat is a luxury or just not a normal staple of the diet. We tend to think that because industrialized nations have beef, chicken, pork, and fish that all cultures place such emphasis on meat in every dish.

Why would you not listen to your body and its signals?

If our body screams that it really wants something, is that reason enough to consume it? If the something is caffeine or sugar? What if we can demonstrate the same addictive qualities to meat products as proven addictive items such as caffeine?

Instead of just doing what someone else told you is best or because that is what it said in this book or study. Check your source and always go out and find what ever truth is available to you yourself. Do not rely on others for your beliefs, create your own!

Truth should be an objective concept, not a belief or a feeling. If "truth" is whatever we just want, then there is no hope for ever having a rational, logical discussion.

You say you'd like people to check sources. I would like to check your sources. Would you mind citing some of them? Thank you.

I still may suggest that you need some meat.

But ... why? Can you give me some objective scientific reason?

I gave up all meat when I went off to college and could make my own food choices. Suddenly it dawn on me I could have a delicious meal without needing a big hunk of pork or a greasy burger. It's been I don't know 12 or 14 years since I've eaten ANY meat, fish, poultry, seafood, etc. What do I need it for?

And an interesting thing happened: when I stopped putting meat on my plate, I lost that mental justification of 'we need meat' or 'meat is a part of life'. It was only then I could really see the connection between animal abuse and the thing on my plate. I grew up thinking meat was something that came on Styrofoam trays at my grocer; I had been so disconnected that this was a living animal's leg or back.

Last but not least, as cavemen our reason for only living to 25 I think was a small deal to do with our food supply.

Here's an amusing cartoon I stumbled across today, and I thought of our discussion.