What surprises me about these types of debates is:
1. The use of one paradigm to attack another - which in itself is totally useless. "Haha my paradigm is better than yours." "Really, show me!" "No, your paradigm sucks ass!"
Everytime someone has promoted science as a paradigm for proving everything I ask them why they use terms like logical, when logic and science are incompatible paradigms. To assume something will necessarily happen because it happened before is a logical fallacy, yet this (proof by induction) is the basis of science.
Also, science was radically altered after Popper, who essentially said accept something as true only after attempts to falsify it have failed. So why should "scientists" on this board ask "believers" to prove something works, when they themselves only really fail to prove something doesn't work? Hmmm.
2. The angry responses and ridicule by both parties defending their side. I've seen this in other areas, MMA vs TMA being a great example, despite them both claiming to use science as their main goal. Might I suggest you all watch South Park's "Go God Go" where the world divides itself into factions over who has the best science.
What happens with any belief system, or way of explaining the world, is that it is never complete, so the user fills in the blanks themselves. Science, Logic, Magic, Religion, I-M are all paradigms used to explain the world and govern us. We like predictability, systems make things predictable, we like systems.
I think it can all be said that if we're on Personal Development forums we'd like to develop compassion? If so, wouldn't it be better to accept that others have different viewpoints and are living their life the best way they know how, so we should live and let live unless they come to us asking for tough love, instead of coming on here and trying to force others to see your point of view? Just a thought.
Frans, thank you for your post. I understand where you're coming from. The way you've explained away I-M is also the same way I've heard a lot of people explain away diets. Dieting and regular exercise work, but it's all the extra sweets and days off that lead people to staying overweight. Like I-M, it's success is dependent on the user. Of course, this is just an explanation, perhaps you just felt frustrated and wanted to come on here and shout "Jesus, what are you people on about!?"
That I can understand, I've seen people say they want something yet their actions go totally against it, or despite them wanting things I have, and me telling them exactly how I achieved it and how they can, they still go for quick fixes. Some times I'd never blow a gasket, but then I remember they're looking at the world in a completely different way to me and I need to accept that, for myself.
An example: I moderate a martial arts board in Ireland. On it, people talk about Self Defence tactics and techniques a lot. I don't get in fights, simple as that. When these guys talk about the mean streets of Dublin, and how being in pubs will get you in fights I just tell them I don't even see any violence in Dublin when I'm out. I'm out to socialise, charge the venue and make connections, not worry about some punter wanting to kick my ass. People would say I'm delusional or walking around with blinkers but I'm the one out drinking every weekend and they're not! Crazy, but I accept that's how they see the world, so i don't engage them in conversation.
Lots of love, (If only I could write blog posts as quickly as I can replies!)
Colm
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