[SonoranBob]

Originally Posted by Angela

Bob, regarding karma and the random, impersonal nature of existence, I'm lost as to why you would be holding both beliefs -- I mean, it seems like karma is a system of meaning, so it just doesn't fit into a random impersonal world view, and vice-versa. If you believe in karma, then you don't believe things are random, right?

Karma is a system of imposed meaning. It is a set of "givens" from some unknown previous existence. Since you have no memory of your past lives then your karma might as well be someone else's. You can't take responsibility for something you aren't even aware of, just because some belief system says you must.

To me, Karma is just another contortion used to explain the inexplicable. We don't know why some people struggle under a cloud of doom and some people don't even understand what the problem is for that person. We don't know why life isn't fair, in other words. So Karma is a way to rationalize it. Another way to rationalize it is to displace the resolution of all such questions into some future life or heavenly existence.

Originally Posted by Angela

Personally, I think the concept of karma is a lot like astrology -- it's fun, but it's hooey baloney. Except in this way: in this physical human life we're living, it seems to me that the same lesson keeps coming back until you learn it, and each time you don't learn it, the consequences become more dire. That does feel to me like "order" of some sort, but I can't (and don't need to) explain it. I reckon some people would attribute it to god or karma, or a universal law of some sort. I just don't know.

That is the other aspect of such teachings. They are mythologizing a general observation about life and attempting to explain that which we have no business explaining until we have actual data to develop an explanation from. I can however agree with your general observation that there appears to be something about life that is inexorable and purposeful and seems to be sending some sort of message. In my experience, to oppose it is to get in the way of a steam roller that has no compunctions about running you down.

Originally Posted by Angela

Yeah, I gotcha. Careening; operating blind. It definitely feels different when your perspective is that it's a fun, wild game (that sometimes hurts) than when you view it as out-of-control danger and pain. (Just two of an infinite number of ways to view it.)

Did you ever see the movie Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? If so, the scene with the fly swatters chasing the protagonists across the desert is a pretty good metaphor for how I react to life. Some things I just can't rationalize as "fun" or "wild". I guess I just can't take a joke.

Originally Posted by Angela

... Rather, I mean "being dynamically willing" -- which means: noticing where I'm getting in my own way, being willing to let go of that, and noticing what's missing that would make a difference, and being willing to generate it.

I don't suppose that is much different from my approach of asking what works and what doesn't, and letting go of attachments to what in my view "should" work.

Originally Posted by Angela

Very often if I think I am unhappy and I dynamically will myself to deliberately guide my emotions, it doesn't end up at "happy" but rather something that inspires me even more. I could give you a couple of examples if you're interested but I won't jump into that in this post.

Sure, I would be open to hear of your experiences.

Originally Posted by Angela

Nahhh, too bad you won't be agreeing with me. I don't tend to let go of hopes, dreams, or aspirations, because I find those things a ton of fun. I do often find myself letting go of attachment to a particular outcome regarding hopes, dreams and aspirations. That is, I let go of thoughts that "I will feel bad if this doesn't go exactly as I envision it." There are just way too many possible outcomes that might be so much cooler than my puny little imagination can currently come up with, and I don't want to kill off possibilities just so's I can have my ducks line up the way I want 'em.

I have always struggled with how you can possibly hope in something without envisioning an outcome, or how you could desire an outcome with no attachment developing. My hopes dreams and aspirations ARE the things I am attempting to accomplish and the outcomes I expect, and OF COURSE I'm invested in them. How could it be otherwise?

I can't figure out how to care about anything and not care about it.

I think the analog of what you're describing, I would relate because of my background in Christianity, to Jesus' prayer, "not my will, but thine [god's] be done". I did not fine much congruence between some outcomes and anything recognizable to me as god's will either, though. I think what you are saying is essentially, "don't be disappointed at this suffering or death or loss or effort spent to no discernible purpose, because the universe has something even better in mind." Well yes, I've experienced that, although on such a limited basis that I couldn't separate it from random happenstance. As for the rest of it, well, I'm essentially still waiting. What else can I do. But I'm not holding my breath either.

--Bob