[Apollia]

Hi. I'm surprised I wrote so much so quickly. It happens sometimes. If only I were consistently this inspired to write - I could maybe thrive in a career involving writing.

Originally Posted by fountainAtlas

Good we agree.

Cool.

I suspect you and I can have a great discussion on taxes and how they relate to charity,

Yes.

but for now I am going to limit myself to the topic at hand.

OK.

Yes. I believe there are a lot of people like that.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. They're called masochists.

They believe that their suffering is in itself a virtue and thus they deserve charity form those who have more than them.

Suffering isn't a virtue, but I think cruelty, or simply not caring about what happens to people, etc. are terrible anti-virtues, & I can't really blame anyone for thinking they deserve better than to be treated with cruelty or callousness.

Though, of course, that doesn't mean poor people should obnoxiously demand gifts from people who aren't much better off than themselves, or even people who _are_ much better off than themselves. Just like anyone else, they should ask nicely if they want something.

And, if poor people receive nothing, they probably shouldn't assume they're being treated cruelly or callously. People who aren't charitable have their reasons which ought to be respected even if they're wrong, and especially if they're not wrong.

While, understandable, but are you sure you aren’t just making excuses for your actions?

Well, just giving reasons, not excuses, hopefully.

What I was trying to get at was what would happen if debt wasn’t available to you when it was the "lesser of two evils"?

Somewhere in my previous reply to you, I already explained what I think probably would have happened if debt had never been an option in my life.

I do not know how to get my point across so I apologies in advance if I offend.

No problem, no offense perceived.

It seems to me that you make excuses for your situation.

It's a pity that giving reasons can often seem so much like giving excuses.

The pressures of life and the weight of circumstances forced you into debt and now the pressure of debt continues to force you into your present situation.

Came close to forcing, at least. My choices were still choices (as stupid as they were).

If you, like I said before, try to take responsibility (both mentally and physically) the outcome may be better.

Thanks. I think I'm doing that, I'm definitely not just sitting around hoping things will change, nor doing nothing but complaining and hoping to be rescued, etc.

I had a similar problem of saying that event X caused me to miss opportunity Y. That was until I realized that there were A, B, and C that I could have done to mitigate X. Thus, me missing out on opportunity Y was really my fault.

Hmm... as nice in some ways it might be to believe I have that much control over everything that has happened & might ever happen to me, I think the way to nip that argument in the bud is to trace everything back to the beginning and ask, did I choose to be born?

I rather doubt the answer is yes (unless maybe the soul exists and there's some truth in the idea that people choose their parents and/or pre-plan their earthly existences) - so, that's quite possibly at least one thing that happened to me that wasn't under my control and hence isn't my fault.

Taking responsibility is like being pregnant, you can't be half pregnant. You either are or you aren’t. Maybe that is a little bit harsh, but without that type of attitude you are able to blame someone else besides yourself.

If people only blame themselves when other factors are partially to blame, then, the system will never be changed. Instead of trying to make things better for the world at large, people will strive to adjust themselves uncomplainingly to their miserable circumstances, to make themselves more and more tolerant of nonsense I think no one should put up with, & which no one should ever have to put up with.

This allows self pity and it deprives you of the power of yourself.

Actually, I view it differently. I think refusing to shoulder all the blame allows you to have a clearer view of how things came to pass, and to find better solutions than just increasing your tolerance for various objectionable things like usurious credit card fees, etc.

Is this not a defeatist attitude?

Yes, the way I wrote the paragraph you're replying to, it is, but, I probably should have worded that a different way, since I meant something a bit different.

I think in my current circumstances, of having decided to stop paying, I probably have a much better chance of becoming prosperous now that I'm no longer constantly turning over most of the money I make to pay debts, and could theoretically build up some savings much faster (as long as I don't keep them in a bank, since my bank account could probably be levied). In this situation, I feel like there's a much better chance my life will get better.

However, if I had decided to keep paying - or decide to go back to paying - then, I think I will probably have a much more difficult time and might never dig my way out of debt, particularly not working at a low-wage job with 25% of my wages possibly being garnished, etc.

Especially since paying those overinflated so-called "debts" depresses me and makes me feel like a complete sucker. (So I stopped, and now I feel much better. )

Oh, and it is your debt, you signed the document take responsibility for your actions.

Give me freedom, or give me debt...

Sorry, I had no good retort to this quote, so I just made a stupid pun.

Would Steve Pavlina give up to life long servitude to the credit card companies

I'm definitely not giving up to lifelong servitude to the credit card companies. I've stopped paying, and I'm trying to figure out how to earn money as a non-employee so my wages can't be garnished.

or would he find a way to get out of it?

No doubt, he'd find a way out. However, I actually tend to regard Steve as being not merely smart, but as some kind of amazing super-genius who achieves results far better than most people can realistically be expected to achieve.

Not to make light of your financial situations, but I would wager that there have been people who had more debt with less ability then you and were still able to escape out from it.

Thanks, I'm flattered you consider me to have ability.

I am curious to see how dire your situation is.

Not that dire, or I wouldn't be spending so much time writing and posting replies to this message board instead of devoting myself exclusively to more profitable pursuits.

Would you be willing to share the exact specifics either publicly or via pm?

Sure. It's not too complicated. I live with my family, with free housing, food, etc. I don't drive because it costs too much money. I help my family out with computer stuff, website stuff, proofreading, shopping, cleaning, looking after my sister, etc. I even wrote a little computer program in Perl to make it easier for my step-dad to create billing invoices for his job, which over time has probably saved my step-dad from days of extra work, since he used to have a far less efficient, not so automated system for creating invoices.

Before I defaulted with my credit cards in July or August 2007, my balances were about $5,000 on a Capital One card and about $5,000 on a Providian card, the interest being somewhere around from $70 to $100 per card per month (even before I defaulted), if I recall correctly.

The late/overlimit fees are something like $39 apiece. Might instead be $30 or $35 for a couple of those fees, not sure, but it's too much trouble to check into this, so, I'll just round it off and assume $39 for all of them. This comes to a total of about $78 per card or somewhere around $156 per month for both of them, on late and overlimit fees.

I'll do a low estimate of the interest even though it's doubtless increasing as a result of all the fees, and penalty interest rates. $70 per card is $140 per month in interest (though it's actually probably considerably more). $140+$156=$296 additional "debt" per month.

I haven't checked lately, but, I estimate that in approximately 12 months of being in default, my balances have probably risen from about $10,000 total to probably around $13,000, just from the fees and interest - quite possibly a lot more since I'm doing a low estimate. It might be more like $14,000 if the interest is closer to $100 per card per month; and also, I haven't taken into account the fact that the interest has probably been increasing each month as the balances have been rising.

I avoid using the bank because my bank account could probably be levied, and, becoming an employee is even less appealing to me than it was before, owing to the fact that my wages could probably be garnished.

I also think what the credit card companies are doing with these fees and interest probably ought to be against the law, so, I don't think I'd be willing to pay them even if I had the means. I'd much rather work on making those fees, etc. against the law, or encourage the credit card companies to go easier on people by organizing a boycott.

I'm guessing probably doing web-related stuff and programming are my best tickets out of this mess. I might end up trying to follow in the footsteps of Steve and others by having a blog. (But it probably won't be on personal development/self-help topics, that would be too ironic, for an unsuccessful person like me to write on such topics )